EQ Never

Sounded to me like every class gets unique attacks from different weapon types. A ranger and a rogue will have different skill set using the same weapon.

Lyrical_sl said:

But a rogue could learn to heal, right?

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Only if there were a healing mechanic that was offensive. Maybe SK has an offensive Life Steal. So if your rogue got the SK class he could slot the LS as one of his 2 offensive abilities. Rouge never gets a defensive heal.

Lyrical_sl said:

I thought that this was supposed to be open skill selection, once you earned it? Also, how does that jive with the dev statement that every class is responsible for their own survival?

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I think it's because there is going to be no auto-attack. Defending yourself will be a combination of Abilities (Spell Shield, Spell Reflects, Blocks, etc), but also movement. We saw they were going to have telegraphs for enemy attacks - so to keep yourself a live you'll have to move out of the danger zones. You can't necessarily just sit at max range launching Fireballs while watching TV and paying not attention whatsoever.

Lenas_sl said:

Sounded to me like every class gets unique attacks from different weapon types. A ranger and a rogue will have different skill set using the same weapon.

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Correct. They hit this hard. They go so far as to give different classes different animations using the same weapon and different "ready" stances.

Nirgon_sl said:

The best Rallos players are still the best people I play with in games, bar none.

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Rallos was the shittiest Zek. Anti-PvP people on a PvP server?Really?

Lenas_sl said:

Sounded to me like every class gets unique attacks from different weapon types. A ranger and a rogue will have different skill set using the same weapon.

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Cool, so even more variables between classes. They could make a pretty endless amount of classes--even two classes with slots, armors that are the same, can be different because the way they use the Dagger or the X or Y weapon is different. It gives a lot of flexibility--and it does sound like they can keep pumping classes into the world and make people want them because of how many combos you can make.

tad10_sl said:

Only if there were a healing mechanic that was offensive. Maybe SK has an offensive Life Steal. So if your rogue got the SK class he could slot the LS as one of his 2 offensive abilities. Rouge never gets a defensive heal.

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So, in a way, the holy trinity is still there. You probably won't see a Rogue on the CH rotation, based on that. And while a Rogue may have some of the abilities of a Warrior, they won't get the defensive ones.

tad10_sl said:

Correct. They hit this hard. They go so far as to give different classes different animations using the same weapon and different "ready" stances.

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That would seem like a ridiculous amount of work just on animations alone. X classes * Y weapon types * Z races = # of different animations???

Lyrical_sl said:

But a rogue could learn to heal, right?

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We don't know. If a Heal is a Defensive Class Ability? No. If it's a Utility Class Ability? Probably.

One possibility I don't think many people have considered: What if a Cleric's Heal is their Flail Weapon Ability? That would mean no one else can use it unless their base class is a Cleric, and they're using a Flail.

Yes freely, but each class is restricted to only using 2 or 3 weapon types. Rangers for example may only be able to use longbows and short swords.

Lyrical_sl said:

So, in a way, the holy trinity is still there. You probably won't see a Rogue on the CH rotation, based on that. And while a Rogue may have some of the abilities of a Warrior, they won't get the defensive ones.

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That is Ukerric's and my point. Yes, everyone can do dps, but at the end of the day, an effective group is going to be trinitized if (and this was Ukerric's excellent point) the AI is good.

If the AI is sucks, it's just people standing around and wacking on the target.

Basically whether or not EQN is worth playing long term seems to be dependent on StoryBricks. Both for the combat and for the evolving player-NPC quest dynamics.

Lyrical_sl said:

So, in a way, the holy trinity is still there. You probably won't see a Rogue on the CH rotation, based on that. And while a Rogue may have some of the abilities of a Warrior, they won't get the defensive ones.

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There will still be Tanks and Healers. But they aren't required.

"We want you to play what you want, when you want, regardless of whether it is a raid or a group. EverQuest Next does not require the use of tanks and healers. Our combat mechanics and our AI do not support dedicated healers and focused tanks. It doesn't work. We don't want a group of people...to be stuck not being able to do the content that you want because your buddy didn't log in, and he happens to be the one role that you need."

"We do have classes that, I don't want to say lean towards a role, but certainly will have abilities that fit more in line with what you think of as a healer or a tank. It is important for us that if you enjoy playing defensively, say you are a warrior and you are used to being sort of the front line, we still want you to be able to do that. We want you to be able to play the way you want to play. What we don't want is you staring at a threat meter or insulting the NPC's mom to get him to attack you. That's not the type of gameplay we are looking for.

One point to make, our NPC's are not stupid enough to attack the same person over and over and over again while the rest of the party is killing them. They will be able to figure out how you are hurting them, and they will stop you from doing it.

While we definitely don't have those mechanics in there, we want you to be able to play defensively, or play a support role, but we are very careful to not have to require them so that your 10 friends can do content without having to have.the tank. We don't want that."

tad10_sl said:

That is Ukerric's and my point. Yes, everyone can do dps, but at the end of the day, an effective group is going to be trinitized if (and this was Ukerric's excellent point) the AI is good.

If the AI is sucks, it's just people standing around and wacking on the target.

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So then all this crying about no trinity is really people not understanding this (ignorance).

Lyrical_sl said:

So then all this crying about no trinity is really people not understanding this (ignorance).

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Surprise!

Muligan_sl said:

I don't think you can put all of Rift's issues on Scott. To my understanding Scott was pretty much a cheerleader. He had the title but to my understanding didn't get the entitlement that should have come with the title. My opinion, I think you have Hartsman all wrong but you may know something I don't. I'm simply going off my experiences and from testimonies from friends that worked under him.

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Don't get me wrong, I have heard he is a nice guy too. And I dunno how much authority he had on rift, but it was his name on it and the game was an abortion of poorly implemented ideas from WoW and a rift system they seemed scared to run with so that is a big mark against him for me. And he did ok on EQ2 but really EQ2 was so bad at that point making it slightly better (and like I said, still not actually good) wasn't a huge order. And he was smart enough to run with some nostalgic expacs instead of fighting space aliens or whatever retarded thing they were doing before him. He is far from the worst dev but I don't get alot of the love that he gets because I just don't see him as being all that accomplished outside of being a nice guy. I personally could give a fuck if the game devs enjoy working for people, only care if the game is good.

Teekey_sl said:

There will still be Tanks and Healers. But they aren't required.

"We want you to play what you want, when you want, regardless of whether it is a raid or a group. EverQuest Next does not require the use of tanks and healers. Our combat mechanics and our AI do not support dedicated healers and focused tanks. It doesn't work. We don't want a group of people...to be stuck not being able to do the content that you want because your buddy didn't log in, and he happens to be the one role that you need."

"We do have classes that, I don't want to say lean towards a role, but certainly will have abilities that fit more in line with what you think of as a healer or a tank. It is important for us that if you enjoy playing defensively, say you are a warrior and you are used to being sort of the front line, we still want you to be able to do that. We want you to be able to play the way you want to play. What we don't want is you staring at a threat meter or insulting the NPC's mom to get him to attack you. That's not the type of gameplay we are looking for.

One point to make, our NPC's are not stupid enough to attack the same person over and over and over again while the rest of the party is killing them. They will be able to figure out how you are hurting them, and they will stop you from doing it.

While we definitely don't have those mechanics in there, we want you to be able to play defensively, or play a support role, but we are very careful to not have to require them so that your 10 friends can do content without having to have.the tank. We don't want that."

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Somehow, I think on raids you are going to want a Cleric with CH or tank with defensive skills on raids, regardless of what they said in the above post.

And, as much as they say it, I don't buy that every skill or weapon ability will be unique. I think you're going to see a lot of clones, with one unique skill. So if a Rogue and Assassin both use daggers, their daggers will probably have 2 skills the same, and the assassin will have 2 additional skills that are different on the dagger. I'll bet some class skills will even be shared, so the rogue or assassin might have two of the same class skills, but again, 2 separate ones.

Maybe they will ALL by unique, but I seriously doubt we're going to see 1200+ skills (8 from two weapons per class, and 4 from the class) in the game at launch and an 12 skill increase every class that's shoved in. Either we're going to see some actually copies of skills OR we're going to see just some redundant skills, like "Blink vs Shazzam!" Which both essentially teleport you forward twelve feet, but Blink gives you 10 armor for 20 seconds, while Shazzam heals you for 1% of your health.

Lyrical_sl said:

So then all this crying about no trinity is really people not understanding this (ignorance).

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Well, SOE is spreading the FUD for whatever reason as well. Again the comparison between newbie and professional LOL players. Newbie players will play wtf they want and have a tough fight against the beginner bots. Professional LOL will play a specific team setup (jungle, AD Carry, etc) and crush intermediate bots.

So you can play WTF you want (6 rogues) and kill stuff, but it won't be efficient and you might be roflstomped at tier 4 and above.

Lithose_sl said:

And, as much as they say it, I don't buy that every skill or weapon ability will be unique.

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There are some shared skills. They said as much at the panel. Just not a lot.

Lyrical_sl said:

So then all this crying about no trinity is really people not understanding this (ignorance).

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Well, it's because of mixed messages. Those quotes by Teekay were made, but then some statements were like "We're BEYOND HEALING!"--You got the vibe that the trinity is going to die not because of advanced AI or tactics (Which won't make the trinity die at all, it will just change it to a more organic front line/support system)--But because they are essentially going to make it impossible for any class to be support.

But as shown above, there are A LOT of mixed signals. Which indicates, as others have said, this shit thus far is all on a napkin somewhere. They haven't finalized anything.