EQ Never

tad10_sl said:

That's a problem with the crafting system in most MMOs - where previous tiers of resources are pretty much useless at the current or higher crafting tier.

I think levels work. I think there's been games with too many levels (60 to start for WoW? Really?). VG would have been a better game if it only had 40 levels at start.

I agree with you that a flatter system is better, but I'm not convinced that item progression is the way to go as is the case in EQN. But we will see. Maybe I'm wrong.

@Erronius you're a sick, sick man.

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This is where I am stuck personally. I get the reason for not having levels (although I'm not in 100% agreement with it either) Anymore, all they are is a cock block to the "actual game," but that is also where the vast majority of resources go when building said game. However, in EQN they have also basically taken stats off of items as well... this really sounds like COH minus the levels, which is a double wammy of suck for me. I could be dead wrong, and it could have been brought up at one point, but I gave up trying to keep up with this thread somewhere around the mid 600's. It's just that if items don't have stats, and there is no way to increase your character's power by time, then what is the point? And if this is not PVP orientated like UO/EVE it really seems suspect. I get trying to branch out and try some new things, but the wheel really doesn't need reinventing all together...

Grumpus_sl said:

I think I agree with Tad mostly.

That said, if they said tomorrow you can pre-order the collectors edition for $119.99 with early beta access would any of you buy in with what you have seen so far?

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I've been throwing money at the screen since friday and nothing happens =(

Seriously though yes I would, no questions asked. But then again the only part I'm missing in what we have so far are the EVE aspects that hopefully follow with the PVP/Crafting info. The only big negative I see is the raped lore, and I'll deal with that because the actual game looks interesting.

It's not EQHD, which I would buy into just as well, but this different game they presented looks very promising to me, and I never had any expectations for the project to actually be EQHD (unlike some others here apparently).

Ok, I'm starting to equate SOE to an abusive girlfriend?

Wtf is with that picture of EC Tunnel?...

How can you treat me so badly but then turn around and tell me you love me?

Poin Dexter_sl said:

I am okay with multi-classing. But for the love of god, keep the trinity. It gives me a feel of role for my character. Having multiple classes is okay, as well as mixing and matching skills are okay, but TANK HEALS DPS is a good social setup. Everyone LOL FACEROLL MASH DPS BUTTONS doesn't cut it for me. I want some semblance of tactics, and kiting everything because you didn't spend $20 on potions isn't the tactics I am looking for. I agree that four skills do not make a class. Eight spell gem options and 8 abilities per class (16 total) would make more sense. Let casts pick and choose what spells they use! Let's not make 4th edition D&D. EQ and WoW (vanilla) had a good balance in skills. EQ 2 was an abomination of skills.

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You are adressing two different things here: How the character abilities are fleshed out, and the general workings of combat and difficulty. About the latter we have idea really. So to adress the first part, the multiclassing with regards to ability selection isnt far off from old EQ, and with regards to character capabilities in general it sounds like GW1, pretty much. My enchanter had 8 active abilities at a time, and was able to switch to different sets with relative ease depending on the situation. The only 'new' thing in EQN is that you can switch to different classes or mix it up.

Anyone familiar with GW1, doesnt it sound very similar? To those that dont know that game, you picked a class at creation and shortly into the game could chose a secondary class. Later on that second class could be switched around freely, but you always kept your main class. You had a limited action bar of 8 skills. In that you could use every skill from your main class, and most but not all skills from your second class. You did not automatically get all skills, especially elites, but instead had to acquire them through various methods of gameplay (as far as PVE was concerned - GW PVP was different). Btw you did have the ability to make a dedicated healer, but could also do all kinds of fun builds. Social pressure aplenty but the game gave you options, even if players often demanded a "trinity" solution. If EQN develops that way I think it is just fine.

If I can make an extremely mobile (blink) pbAOE based healer with limited CC (stun/mez) I will be exceptionally happy.

Pyros_sl said:

The tier system and attributes system isn't really a completely flat progression, it's still very similar to levels, only that you don't have as big of a progression and there's a lot less levels. Say there's 3 tiers in EQN eventually, that means there's basically 3 levels. 1, 15 and 30, to use normal levels comparison. It might be closer to 1, 5, 10 though depending on how they balance tier stuff and attributes and what not. Point is someone who has played for a while and has all the additional attributes with all the weapons that boost all the right skills is most likely going to be more powerful than the newb who just started, at the very least for that particular role(pure dps, tanky dps, support dps, control dps which seems to be the type of archetypes you're gonna get).

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A bit weary of this. The Secret World uses a similar system, but it is extremely gear based. I'm a bit scared that no matter how good or skilled you are, pick up groups and raids are not going to take you to do a tier 5 instance, because you're completely decked in tier 4 gear. So, basically if you're completely done with tier 4, you're a bit stuck before you can start with tier 5. It happens in The Secret World too: e.g. you're done with elite instances (so you're completeley in quality level 10 blues) nobody will take you through a nightmare dungeon, because you're a liability, many will say your dps or healing is subpar and they don't think they will be able to complete an instance with you in group. So you stand there in looking for group, sucking your thumb. The only solution for this, get in a guild and beg in guild chat for 4 people willing to take you through some nightmares they most likely will not be able to complete because most boss fights are a dps check (you can't come as healer because your gear sucks and the tank and the group will most likely die a lot). That is a not so extreme example of tier based "leveling" and seriously, I don't like it...
"Tier-based leveling" (lack of a better word or expression) quickly turns into a gearcheck and many people complain they can't find a group for this or that because they still have QL 10 instead of 10.2 or higher. In short, make skill matter too and don't make it a simple gearcheck and I'm a bit scared EQN will fall into the same pitfall.

bwuceli_sl said:

A bit weary of this. The Secret World uses a similar system, but it is extremely gear based. I'm a bit scared that no matter how good or skilled you are, pick up groups and raids are not going to take you to do a tier 5 instance, because you're completely decked in tier 4 gear..

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While gear is going to matter, there really shouldn't be such a binary gear check in the system they're planning in EQ Next. Gear isn't about +Health or +DPS.

Now, gear should help you live longer, or do more DPS - but not because of some static value. It's all about how it combos with your abilities and how you use it, more than simply just wearing it.

Randin_sl said:

Well, they do keep bringing up permadeath...

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im fine with permadeath if i keep my crafted shit and classes banked haha.

Quaid_sl said:

If I can make an extremely mobile (blink) pbAOE based healer with limited CC (stun/mez) I will be exceptionally happy.

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that sounds like a pretty sweet combo.

funny my thought was to create an AOE taunt blink tank we have the beginnings of a good pairing

Tier system and unlocked abilities from additional classes (basically what was always intended with Rift...) is a very viable progression system. What they have done is simply make the 'max level' progression the main method of advancement rather than having 60 levels of whatever followed by Alternative Advancement.

The pacing of things is going to be critical. In my view GW2 made a massive mistake in granting a metric fuckton of abilities in the first 30 mins of playing and then essentially jack shit for the next 300 hours. People like gaming with a goal to be awesome. Make it so that really cool powers and items with effects are obtained after quite a lot of adventuring and I think people will genuinely be much happier.

Stop being afraid to let the players be awesome. Challenging but fun with great rewards. Remember epics? Epics were COOL. People really loved getting their epic and furthermore really wanted their friends to get epics. Epics, in both EQ and EQ2, are some of the best community building features I have ever seen. Hell make some of the 40 classes the result of doing Epic-like quests!

"Hey we need some help to help Darph unlock Guardian so he can stop bleeding all over the nice clean floors... we will be near the 5th piece for the Illusionist and Warden quest mobs too so we can swing by and knock those out too." Fuck yes I am logging in for that.

Going on massive quests or raids to get +1% gooder really does nothing for me, especially when I know that in the next expansion every gain will be eradicated.

I don't think this has been posted yet.

The world of EQN panel:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPHP70DPu5c

Teekey_sl said:

While gear is going to matter, there really shouldn't be such a binary gear check in the system they're planning in EQ Next. Gear isn't about +Health or +DPS.

Now, gear should help you live longer, or do more DPS - but not because of some static value. It's all about how it combos with your abilities and how you use it, more than simply just wearing it.

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Now, from what I gather it would be a bit like this:
Sleeves of lesser blinking (tier 1) - reduces 5% of the stamina cost of any blink/dash ability
Sleeves of blinking (tier 2) - reduces 10% of the stamina cost of any blink/dash ability
Sleeves of greater blinking (tier 3) - reduces 15% of the stamina cost of any blink/dash ability
etc...

In that case, cool, going up in tiers would actually mean being able to use a skill more often and being able to use a skill in combination with another skill...
Now let's put something like, I dunno, haste into the equation...

least FBSS (tier 1) - 5% haste
lesser FBSS (tier 2) - 11% haste
FBSS (tier 3) - 21% haste
greater FBSS (tier 4) - 33% haste
the mother of all FBSS'eseses (tier 5) - 45% haste
That wouldn't work, I think, because haste is too much of a game changer and it won't be too long before any group DEMANDS all their DPS have tier 5 FBSS.

Noodleface_sl said:

jesus 8 abilities on the hotbar what the fuck did they fuck copy jesus christ gw 2 huh

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I have no idea how EQN will turn out, but did you play EQ as a melee? Because from a caster point of view 8 spells available at a time has been standard fare in EQ, the hotbar madness only started years later (and good riddance if they remove it). There are several questionable things we know about so far, but the limited ability bar isnt one of them.

Malakriss_sl said:

Only 8 ability slots available is not a big of a deal as chucking the entire spellbook out the window. I like to think of it as a fast food menu board, each person may only like 8 things from the whole menu but they've shrunken the entire board down to only 8 items and then told people to switch to Burger King if they don't like the selection.

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If I understand Tad right the class has 2 weapons (preset 4 abilities on each so 8 different but only 2 choices), and a dozen or so class skills from which you can pick 4. That's still less then my EQ spellbook, but I think that's where the multiclassing comes in. From the examples used so far, assassin, ninja, thief and scoundrel are each variants of the rogue archetype, and if you as a player want to be that archetype you'll multiclass into most of those classes that in your own opinion present the rogue skillset and thus end up with a "full spellbook" but from your choice of classes. I certainly expect to gather the illusionist, phantasmist, coercer and so on enchanter aspects.

This title is going to be such a cluster fuck. Sometimes less is more. I'm tired of following these titles for years to have them be worth a few months of pacifying entertainment. I don't need EQ3, just something with mediocre graphics and a plethora of immersive content.

Quaid_sl said:

I've been playing DOTA since your grandparents were in diapers sonny.

I get it man... But original EQ... If you were an enchanter you were so vastly different from a cleric, or a warrior, or a monk it was basically a different game. Not so much with EQnext.

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This is conjecture, but if you play EQN and enjoy rangers so after some time your class list is ranger/beastmaster/warden/archer/hunter/duelist, I'm sure it plays different from my zealot/priest/cleric/warlord/paladin 'holy warrior' type. You could say it is a different game basically.

Youcanmulticass all over, yea, but if it takes enough time to get a class to full potential only few will do it. It would be more efficient to build on one skillset with multiclasses that similar. Nobody in EVE has all the skills. Most serious players in WoW have each class at cap. Both are generalised statements of course but I hope EQN multiclassing leans towards the EVE side of time investment. It would be smart by SOE because players that feel they have goals are players that keep playing and keep spending money.

Another example is D&D 3rd ed multiclassing, technically you can mix anything, in practice you often stick to similar classes and prestige classes for efficiency and focus. And aside from balance issues D&D 3rd ed multiclassing was pretty nice (judging from the videogames, no clue about the actual pen and paper).

Pyros_sl said:

... It's just GW1+2 class/skill system mixed up.

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Anyone that hasnt played GW1 should probably check out their free trial for a few days to see how that class/skill system works, because EQN is pretty much running with that plus GW2 weapon skills. And to pre-empt the hating on the letters G and W, GW1 had a healer/buffing class and and very fun variety of healing spells (its the monk, which isnt a cloth caster in that game and not a melee).

Menion_sl said:

You forgot flipping an enraged raid boss on the melee DPS to see who was AFK and who was actually paying attention.

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Thanks for mentioning that, it triggered a nostalgic smile. Surprise afk check on the blobs before Aten = zone pop drops to half.

Did you guys not see that there will be no "healing" classes. Everyone is responsible for their own survival. I'm not kidding.

Supposedly everyone will be able to heal themselves. They aren't lumping people into the holy trinity of DPS, Tank or Heal. Everyone will be capable of doing a combination of the 3 roles.
So yeah. You are still responsible for your own survival. Mobs will ping pong around (I guess), and you'll have to know when it runs to you to stop attacking.

Again, we won't know how this plays out in the "real world" until we actually see it. There's too many unanswered questions or "we'll release that information at a later date" type of responses to get a clear picture of how the game will be played.