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Silence_sl

shitlord
2,459
4
eVasiege_sl said:
I think them getting rid of levels is what will make EQ Next successful ultimately.
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I've been an opponent of players levels for the last few years for lots of reasons. Primarily because they don't add anything to the game other than a time dimension....invest time_x to get to level_y, which doesn't include skill or anything other than beating up rats and wimpy bears for their assholes that some weird quest giver wants for his pot_of_stew_900133. I could write for days on this whole player level bit, but the end issue is one of usage in general.

Zones that take time and effort to construct in a level based game go largely unused in that game as the population becomes top heavy. In a flat level MMO, those zones could be put to use for other purposes than purely leveling. Say, a meta game in which crafters of housing items and housing creation items could progress by farming unique items in that zone without getting donkey punched to Pluto by an NPC 98 levels above him. Laugh all you guys want, but I made a tuck fun of plat selling stuff to crafters who then made stuff to sell to people wanting to decorate their shingles. SOE could have a really cool meta game thatalsocaters to cosmetic player items and housing items and they could could easily create classes that excel in non-combat roles so they could decorate their toons and hang drapes on their walls. EQ2 comes really close to this. No reason why this couldn't also be included in a world wherein people beat up rats for their butts with increasingly nicer types of swords.
 
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Felmega_sl

shitlord
563
1
eVasiege_sl said:
I think them getting rid of levels is what will make EQ Next successful ultimately. This recent crowd MMO's (the past 10 years) have yet to break players from the mentality of needing to rush through the game. And it's gotten worse because developers assume the following: 1) The casual crowd doesn't have enough time to play so leveling needs to be easier and more meaningful 2) Everyone wants a good story because it makes leveling more interesting. These are two assumptions that have really hindered the genre in my opinion.

The only reason games such as EQ and AC got away with levels is because, for me (the casual player), reaching max level was never an actual expectation. I played at my own pace, took breaks from grinding, and made my fun doing other things because rushing meant burning out. As a very casual gamer, it took me over two years to get a character to max in EQ, and I never got past level 60 in Asheron's Call (still don't know the max level is because I never cared!), but enjoyed the journey much more those games. I remember playing for days and weeks in EQ or UO where what I did didn't involve leveling up at all. What people don't get is that even for us casual players, we don't care how fast or slow the leveling is, or how long it takes to reach a certain point. Only that it is possible to have fun in the process. And having the tools to create your own fun is all you need to make games like UO successful. Sure you'll always be looking to gain skills and whatnot, but your attitude changes immensely when you realize the finish line is either too far to worry about, there's nothing at the end worth rushing for, or the race doesn't even exist in the first place. Removing the traditional leveling system and a grand storyline will help to emphasize slowing down and just doing whatever is fun or interesting at the time. I'm amazed it's taken 15 years for developers to again realize this.

The story in games like GW2 or SWTOR ultimately do more harm than good. One reason is because players want to know how the story develops, so they rush to view the ending. What happened to role playing and creating your own stories, and making your own fun outside the planned aspects of the game? This is what made MMO's different. It's almost as if people forgot that's even a viable option today with a gazillion quests telling people where to go and what to do all the time. Hopefully EQ Next realizes these things.

Anyway, this has probably been discussed before, just wanted to vent what was on the mind.
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Good points here. I dont give a damn about a story like what was done in SWTOR. I'd rather play in a sandbox and make my own way. When I log in, I like to miff around; look at shit, converse in area chat, do some mining and crafting, of course PvE and PvP. Point being that I dont want to be pointed in a very specific direction or even directions. I appreciate some vague guidance towards an overall goal of becoming more powerful.

The last thing I am going to do is bounce from quest hub to quest hub looking for '?'s. I am done with theme parks.
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,533
595
Re: levels

Zehn, myself, Grave and a couple of others theorycrafted pretty much the exact EQN item/skill progression system years ago on the old 38Studios thread on fohguild. At the end, IIRC Zehn was in favor and I was opposed (Can't remember what Grave or anyone else preferred - RIP fohguild.org). Nothing in EQN has really changed my mind on it - I like levels, I find them useful. I think they provide a better sense of continuous progression - as you watch that little xp bar tick up. I like items with stats, again an easy way to feel like you're progressing your character. Obviously, as noted before, I prefer items with procs/effects.

What fucked up levels was the post-EQ1 MMO you have to race to endgame philosophy. Making every level below 60 (or whatever the final level was) useless. Original EQ (and original VG before they screwed up the XP cap) did it correctly, the journey should be the reward.

@Silence those dungeons weren't used because again, post-EQ1 MMOs only put in stat gear. Nothing that would make a someone come back and solo the dungeon for a proc or effect.

That said, I think I'll enjoy the tiering process in EQN but I'll keep hoping for EQ3.
 
iannis

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
Furious_sl said:
Seriously bro. I was thinking, the first thing I'm making in landmark is old seb. Stone for freaking stone.

I'm going to try and build all eq1 from original to velious.
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There are going to be so many guk's/karnors/sola+b/seb's in EQ:L.

So so many. So very many. Very so many. Very Very So many. So Very So Very many.
 
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Silence_sl

shitlord
2,459
4
tad10_sl said:
@Silence those dungeons weren't used because again, post-EQ1 MMOs only put in stat gear. Nothing that would make a someone come back and solo the dungeon for a proc or effect.
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I didn't mention dungeons specifically because I think they should be on a different type of progression that isn't Level first. Gear, AA, etc...we are treading old ground here. The thrust of my point was that most zones could remain relevant due to itemization (gear, crafting) versus becoming utterly barren in a level based game.
 
Erronius

Erronius

<WoW Guild Officer>
<Gold Donor>
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tad10_sl said:
Fedor:

rrr_img_39480.jpg
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Fedor:

Fsjc4DT.jpg
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,533
595
Silence_sl said:
I didn't mention dungeons specifically because I think they should be on a different type of progression that isn't Level first. Gear, AA, etc...we are treading old ground here. The thrust of my point was that most zones could remain relevant due to itemization (gear, crafting) versus becoming utterly barren in a level based game.
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That's a problem with the crafting system in most MMOs - where previous tiers of resources are pretty much useless at the current or higher crafting tier.

I think levels work. I think there's been games with too many levels (60 to start for WoW? Really?). VG would have been a better game if it only had 40 levels at start.

I agree with you that a flatter system is better, but I'm not convinced that item progression is the way to go as is the case in EQN. But we will see. Maybe I'm wrong.

@Erronius you're a sick, sick man.
 
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Silence_sl

shitlord
2,459
4
tad10_sl said:
That's a problem with the crafting system in most MMOs - where previous tiers of resources are pretty much useless at the current or higher crafting tier.
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As a designer of a flat system, I'd want all tiers to be relevant, and thus lots of zones to be relevant. Though getting x of ore type y and z from aa different zones is still in a way collecting animal buttholes. As a player, I'd rather be able to collect x from all those zones sans group or raid zones than 1-2 zones in my player level range.

Though, we are treading old ground here. Until EQNx comes out, we are all painting our arsesholes and elbows into the pointy end of a room, and waiting for the paint to dry.
biggrin.png
 
Erronius

Erronius

<WoW Guild Officer>
<Gold Donor>
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My take on crafted gear in most MMOs is that the big problems are A) gear isn't volatile and it doesn't need to be recycled, only upgraded, and B) most of the time crafted gear just fills in the gaps until you can get better drops and a result most crafted gear is mediocre and subpar. EVE is different but I can't see many people wanting to have a chance of their gear getting destroyed whenever they die and Devs wouldn't want crafted gear to be as good or better than dropped gear if they go with dropped gear item progression.

I'm not gonna lie, I've never been sure if someone could make a game where players would accept the idea of there being nothing but crafted gear (full player made economy)ANDhave item volatility at death (like ship/mods in EVE, some item destruction and partial PVP loot) in a fantasy MMO. I'm sure you could do it, maybe it's already been done (pvp looting has afaik), but I could see a lot of people having issues with it and feeling like w/o purple gear that is permanent that they might have a hard time visualizing their characters progress and relative power.

tad10_sl said:
@Erronius you're a sick, sick man.
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I could have linked my "with colon" version, but people in IRC liked the sans colon one better.http://i.imgur.com/UAwXv9A.jpg
 
Cinge

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,277
2,301
Has there been a full player made economy? I think UO?(I never played). I know EVE is close, but isn't a majority of the top tier stuff from missions/drops(besides ships)?
 
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Bocephus

78
0
I would rather them take most dropped "high end" gear out and put in crafting shards/pieces that let you take a item and lets say for example take your weapon and add lets say a imbued shard of "insert boss mob name here" to the hilt that add an effect or stat on top of what it already has as well as added graphic options. I mean you do crafting one or two ways imo. You either make it a vital part of the game and worth something or filler like WoW and other games. If you make the crafting deep enough and make people work to "level" it and really give players options to change the look and stats I do not think to many people would have a problem with crafting being the means to most top end gear.

There is a reason why a ton of people like armor dye's and vanity slots for gear graphics because people get tired of looking like every other asshole on the server in top end gear. Give the players the tools and let them make cool shit.
 
Borzak

Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
25,443
33,203
Personally I don't give a shit about crafted stuff. I don't want to play a hero who grows up to be the best blacksmith. Sounds too much like the real world. I want kill shit and take it's treasure that someone else made long ago.
 
Erronius

Erronius

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<Gold Donor>
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cinge_sl said:
I know EVE is close, but isn't a majority of the top tier stuff from missions/drops(besides ships)?
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You know there is, like I put some officer level mods on my Vargur I think, but really at the time I was tempted to just use T2 level mods. Not because of price per se (though T2 was def cheaper and a bit less effective) but the more expensive a fit you use, the more likely it is that you're going to get ganked in the hope that some of those mods survive and they can loot them from your wreckage.

For example my Vargur fit may be expensive but it wasn't as bad as this:http://zkillboard.com/detail/30855391/And look at how few of his expensive mods dropped and were instead destroyed outright.

My point being that with the way EVE is structured, a lot of people actually opt out of doing super expensive fits with mods like that because you become a gigantic loot pinata so that even if you can afford the high end mods most people opt for stuff like T2. There is a huge demand for the cheaper crafted stuff because few people want to sink that much into a ship if you're going to lose it eventually anyways. I think most people use T2s at most.

Borzak_sl said:
Personally I don't give a shit about crafted stuff.
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I think there is room for games at each extreme, at one end is fully player crafted gear and at the other is fully dropped and seeded gear. My own issue is with games that try to take the dropped gear and then force crafting systems into it, usually it doesn't work. Even Blizzard had issues with it for a long time and then you started seeing certain professions make fucktons of money while others were largely worthless. After I quit WOW I gather that they made a push to balance crafting more but IMHO the only time I want to see crafting anymore is when it actually MEANS something, and not a lot of games have managed to pull it off. EQ1 had some neat crafting (if you could stand doing it) but I do remember getting to a point where dropped gear took over completely so /shrug.
 
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Wuyley_sl

shitlord
1,443
13
As someone who has only ever played MMOs with levels how does it work without? Do you still "con" mobs to see if they are red/yellow etc., or do you just have to know how hard the mob is in relation from you by simple walking up to it, smacking it on the head and seeing how much damage it does?

Also, since there is no levels, are the high end zones all restricted access where you have to be "keyed" to get into them? What about gear? If there is no level limit to it, what is stopping my buddy who has played the game forever from twinking the shit out of me?
 
D

Droigan

Trakanon Raider
2,575
1,260
Wuyley_sl said:
As someone who has only ever played MMOs with levels how does it work without? Do you still "con" mobs to see if they are red/yellow etc., or do you just have to know how hard the mob is in relation from you by simple walking up to it, smacking it on the head and seeing how much damage it does?

Also, since there is no levels, are the high end zones all restricted access where you have to be "keyed" to get into them? What about gear? If there is no level limit to it, what is stopping my buddy who has played the game forever from twinking the shit out of me?
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1) If they have no levels, and counter that by having (technically leveled) various mobs whos difficulty can only be determined by conning them like in EQ, I will be very happy. Hope they do that. But doubt it. It is not a casual thing.

1.2) If they do the above and also shift power to the mob, so that even cons that showed the mob to be lower in power or the same power than you, can beat you up. Then I will be extremely happy.

1.3) Then add a death penalty.....

1.4) And in a proceduraly generated world there is no in game gps map..... Omg... It can be..... No.. No. It will not be like that.... (pretty please devs? let it be like that)

2) Since gear is ability based, and the mentioned passives such as increased boost in stamina which would give you the option to utelize different skillsets, then I think twinking might turn into an Anarchy Online thing. Can equip this, then that leads to being able to equip this, then this, and now you have uberability X, but stuck with said gear because if you remove the combo, you lose the ability to use the skill.

2.1) To counter the ability to use everything at level 1, you probably have, as I stated above, increases in passives (by either gear or class abilities) for stats such as mana, stamina, aggression or whatever they call their stats. This would mean that even if you have gear with uber abilities on them, you would need to level your class(es) first and gain the skill increases for them before you can equip/use said gear.
 
xzi

xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
6,763
I'm surprisingly okay with no levels. It seems like Silence mentioned, they want to actually put use to zones. There's so many zones that have almost no reason for you to go back to. WoW queuing is a pretty good example of that too, once you could queue from Stormwind there was no point to even leave the city at all. Why even waste all the time on the rest of the world?

I've always been an explorer in MMOs so personally I don't care either way because I was always finding my way back into lowbie zones looking for new shit, but at least in this case I can go to whatever zone whenever I want (for the most part) and most importantly I DON'T HAVE TO LEVEL FUCKING ALTS
 
Siddar

Siddar

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
6,457
6,003
tad10_sl said:
They already showed off the glide boots so flight seems likely but the islands are all T3 or above, so going to take a while to get there.
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Its the same engine as Planetside 2 so flying is a given. The question is will game have fighting in the air as well? The engine supports it but are they willing to design games classes in a way that supports it.
 
Pyros

Pyros

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The tier system and attributes system isn't really a completely flat progression, it's still very similar to levels, only that you don't have as big of a progression and there's a lot less levels. Say there's 3 tiers in EQN eventually, that means there's basically 3 levels. 1, 15 and 30, to use normal levels comparison. It might be closer to 1, 5, 10 though depending on how they balance tier stuff and attributes and what not. Point is someone who has played for a while and has all the additional attributes with all the weapons that boost all the right skills is most likely going to be more powerful than the newb who just started, at the very least for that particular role(pure dps, tanky dps, support dps, control dps which seems to be the type of archetypes you're gonna get).
 
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