EQ Never

Convo_sl said:

It's going to be interesting.. I just assumed combat collision is in. I assumed that when i saw the Ice wall and destructible terrain. I guess I'm more worried that mobs will be running through a jungle gym at times. I put up an ice wall and dig a hole behind it. Mob breaks ice wall and falls into hole. Rinse/repeat.. stuff like that. It's fun at first but over time? I'm going to continue to put some faith in just not knowing all the details and wait and see.

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I will say that if people liked and thought EQ had a lot of character because it allowed for things like splitting, kiting, training, etc., this game will be able to do those things an order of magnitude better/more. If they don't cockblock us from it, like games like to do to anything fun or interesting as of late.

Imagine digging a mob pit ala minecraft, collecting a shitload of skeletons, and dropping them on someone's head. This is like the difference between 2d emergent gameplay and 3d emergent gameplay.

belfast_sl said:

If the AI is too smart, there *has* to be one of two things: taunt, or physical blocking (no clipping). In every example the mob wants to kill the high dps class or healer because that makes sense to preserve its life. The only thing causing there to even be a useful tank/fighter role is taunt or environmental restrictions on the AI that don't give them an alternative.

They already said there are no taunts but have alluded to "intercepts." I don't see how it could be fun if every single encounter is going to involve manipulating enough environment to restrict the AI for a fighter class (whirlwinding around a mob until its left standing on a platform? ), but it does seem fun as hell for the casters (ice walls, blowing holes in the ground, etc). I predict we should all be casters/ranged classes.

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That old, pass?, rickshaw-level D&D has a few suggestions here

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemasterin...neuver-Defense

Moving, Tripping, Grappling, Sundering weapons and armors, Overrunning, Dragging, Disarming, etc. All maneuvers that can realistically be given to melee classes to enable battlefield control.

Now remove the taunt ability/augments that proc aggro, and remove the fact that the enemy is drawn to these things but instead wants to kill the things most responsible for it not living. Seems pretty clear.

And add to that mobs using a host of abilities and skills not on timers, but reactive to what the players are doing.

tad10_sl said:

Lol. EQN subreddit has gone full NAZI. Only positive votes will be allowed ;-)

Don't they know? You never go full Nazi.

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tad10 again. Yeah they just lost me on that, lol.

That's every reddit forum. The place is designed to be an echo chamber for one opinion

Wow Vanilla AI was already quite smart. Tanks had to work to keep aggro. Some folks loved the challenge. They were the good tanks, the rockstars. Others hated the idea cause they were tanking because it got them groups not because they loved it. They wanted the system changed, so they could do more damage.

All the new Ai is going to do is make it less fun overall. You have 8 skills you can slot. If you have to take 2 of those skills to get the tools to control fights then you are just limiting the player to the 2 button gameplay of a taunt and an +aggro button. Wow had fantastic combat AI before they upped the aggro of tanks to Yawn status, before they took out the frustrating as shit npc abilities like Gouge (aggro suspension for the duration of gouge) Stuns, knockdowns, blinds, roots, snares, secondary target abilities, charms, wing buffets, aggro transfers and all the other mechanics wow used to get fights interesting.

Chasing down a monster is fun a few times. Every fight is fucking frustrating and eventually boring when you want to be the tank and have no tools that allow you to do that role. (See GW2)

Saying you can play your way then allowing you only a few ways to play is more frustrating than having a defined role and the tools to complete that role. Better to be honest and let folks choose than offer up false choices and frustrating mechanics and guise them in a cloak of bullshit PR speak.

I want action and reaction not smoke up my ass and a pat on the head for jumping through the hoops of some superdev who thinks they can reinvent the wheel. The wheel fucking works, use the tool in a smart way don't ignore it because you want to be a pretty special snowflake.

Enchanter in EQ was my most fun role ever in mmo's.

I don't see how anything anyone is suggesting here is "emergent". A mage outdamages everyone in a particular group so the mob always targets him. Guess what, that's a mage "tank". He re-slots his skills so he has more crowd control, now the rogue is outdamaging him and is always being targeted. Now we have a rogue tank. The rogue re-slots his skills so he has more escape tools, now the warrior is outdamaging him. Etc etc etc.

EQ1 already had all this. The taunt button didn't even work if I remember right, warriors would just be given a huge damage head start so they would hold aggro. Wizards had to watch how much damage they did so they wouldn't steal aggro because the mob wanted to rip their head off for being the biggest threat to its own safety. How is this shit even worth the amount of discussion it's getting? It's old hat. It's the same old shit we've already seen.

Everyone is saying "Oh but now we all have to take care of ourselves, it's totally different!". I will be very, very surprised if it doesn't turn into "Hey the death knight has the biggest HP pool, let him hit the mobs for 25 seconds first before the rest of us engage".

kaid_sl said:

Well eqnext even in their demo showed things like creating walls of ice that blocked the path of the kobolds that they had to break it down so they can do physical object collision. Not sure if players themselves will have collision but even at this early state things like annivias wall or trundles poo pillar look very possible to do in eqnext.

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That ability would have been much cooler if the spell would have raised the actual terrain rather than creating a wall from the atmosphere.

Khane_sl said:

I don't see how anything anyone is suggesting here is "emergent". A mage outdamages everyone in a particular group so the mob always targets him. Guess what, that's a mage "tank". He re-slots his skills so he has more crowd control, now the rogue is outdamaging him and is always being targeted. Now we have a rogue tank. The rogue re-slots his skills so he has more escape tools, now the warrior is outdamaging him. Etc etc etc.

EQ1 already had all this. The taunt button didn't even work if I remember right, warriors would just be given a huge damage head start so they would hold aggro. Wizards had to watch how much damage they did so they wouldn't steal aggro because the mob wanted to rip their head off for being the biggest threat to its own safety. How is this shit even worth the amount of discussion it's getting? It's old hat. It's the same old shit we've already seen.

Everyone is saying "Oh but now we all have to take care of ourselves, it's totally different!". I will be very, very surprised if it doesn't turn into "Hey the death knight has the biggest HP pool, let him hit the mobs for 25 seconds first before the rest of us engage".

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Theres nothing to build up in the sense that you are talking about, you can't get a lead on hate because there is no hate to get a lead on.

jarrettmp_sl said:

Enchanter in EQ was my most fun role ever in mmo's.

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Yep, I was hoping the Priest in WoW would bring back that goodness but as soon as Sleep got axed the writing was on the wall, plus they didn't get illusions which were just hugely entertaining. Being one of the first to get Illusion:Werewolf on the server and getting a mate to run in front of you shouting "train to zone" in the starting areas was good times.

Holy crap this thread has blown up in the past few weeks. Is the any possibility we can get the mods to edit the first post with what's been learned so far?