Final Fantasy XIV (Guide in first post)

phisey · Feb 7, 2022

Sylas said:
For the record, I do not give a single fuck about the story. Shut the fuck up about the story.

I'd honestly cut my losses and try a different game; FFXIV is just not that "gamey". Just like all the recent Final Fantasy games, the designers understood that overly complex game systems often get in the way of their storytelling and they decided long ago to build their franchise around the story experience more so than the gameplay experience.

If the main story questline isn't enough to keep you playing, I wouldn't bother. You could maybe try again later. I know a lot of people who tried the free game, quit and came back much later. But if the unending fetch quests and cutscenes are just irritating you, it's not gonna work out.

Chris · Feb 7, 2022

phisey said:
I'd honestly cut my losses and try a different game; FFXIV is just not that "gamey". Just like all the recent Final Fantasy games, the designers understood that overly complex game systems often get in the way of their storytelling and they decided long ago to build their franchise around the story experience more so than the gameplay experience.

If the main story questline isn't enough to keep you playing, I wouldn't bother. You could maybe try again later. I know a lot of people who tried the free game, quit and came back much later. But if the unending fetch quests and cutscenes are just irritating you, it's not gonna work out.

I don't really agree with this, the MSQ isn't "gamey" as you say but the dungeons and raids are better than WoW.

Neranja · Feb 7, 2022

Sylas said:
You guys are acting like the choice is between lousy combat with a good story or good combat with a shitty story.

Yet you are the one who said not "like there is shit else out there to play right now", yet you valiantly argue your point here in long-winded diatribes about how the game sucks.

Yeah, we know the early levels and story are a drag. No one is even arguing that point.

Khalan · Feb 7, 2022

Definitely feels like the higher end dungeons/savages are more tuned around knowing mechanics + movement + personal responsibility VS button Mashing and trying to out Heal massive Raid DMG or DPS. I like the slower pace of damage in the game as a healer, it allows me to feel a lot less stress but also participate in the fights a lot more vs some MMO's where I am spam healing non stop just to keep people alive.

Chris · Feb 7, 2022

Neranja said:
Yet you are the one who said not "like there is shit else out there to play right now", yet you valiantly argue your point here in long-winded diatribes about how the game sucks.

Yeah, we know the early levels and story are a drag. No one is even arguing that point.

WoW and FF14 are definitely polar opposites with their strengths and weaknesses right now and it's fertile ground to explore as someone interested in game design.

I'm shitting in the WoW theads so I'm happy for people to shit here, especially if they are right and acually giving the game a go. I voiced the same critisisms in expansions past.

The problem WoW has is that it's strengths, which were the free to explore open world and the responsive combat; have been severely weakened by the post-cataclysm doctrine of linear quest hubs and total class rewrites.

Ironically WoW now has an MSQ, except it's not functional since it's missed the old backstory and they keep cutting bits out because they can't be bothered maintaining old systems. Oh and they have Californians write the story, who are now apparently the most dumbed down and propagandised people in the west.

phisey · Feb 7, 2022

Chris said:
I don't really agree with this, the MSQ isn't "gamey" as you say but the dungeons and raids are better than WoW.

Do you think the dungeons and raids are good enough to sustain the interest of players who are irritated by playing through the MSQ at all? If not, then you're not disagreeing at all.

I don't see how folks who are turned off by weeb culture and repetitive fetch/kill quests of the MSQ are being helped by people insisting they'll somehow enjoy it after 300+ hours of irritation.

The game won't be redeemed by satisfying feedback loops or clutch raid gameplay videos at the endgame. It's definitely redeemed by Emmet Selch's arc or the Archons' growth or Ishikawa's writing. If none of those interest the player, then it's never redeemed at all.

Chris · Feb 7, 2022

phisey said:
Do you think the dungeons and raids are good enough to sustain the interest of players who are irritated by playing through the MSQ at all? If not, then you're not disagreeing at all.

I don't see how folks who are turned off by weeb culture and repetitive fetch/kill quests of the MSQ are being helped by people insisting they'll somehow enjoy it after 300+ hours of irritation.

The game won't be redeemed by satisfying feedback loops or clutch raid gameplay videos at the endgame. It's definitely redeemed by Emmet Selch's arc or the Archons' growth or Ishikawa's writing. If none of those interest the player, then it's never redeemed at all.

Depends on the person, all we can do is be honest about how 1-50, 50-70 and 70-90 are three different games going from 6/10 and 8/10 to 10/10.

If 1-50 has no redeemable features for someone, they need to look at the gameplay and roations of 70-90 raids and dungeons to see if they think it's worth the investment.

Remember that you only ever need to do the MSQ once and by lv80 it's some of the best storytelling in gaming history.

Neranja · Feb 7, 2022

Khalan said:
Definitely feels like the higher end dungeons/savages are more tuned around knowing mechanics + movement + personal responsibility VS button Mashing and trying to out Heal massive Raid DMG or DPS.

Ironically, for many players "over the hump" of the initial shock, this is a strength of the slower FFXIV combat system, even if it takes a lot for players coming from WoW to really understand that. The 2.5s GCD leads to a more tactical play, but at the same time you can be somewhat competitive even with 500ms ping. And the game is really fair in telling you how it expects you to resolve any boss mechanic ahead of time.

Also, personal responsibility is the key in FFXIV. WoW should really add those "fun badges", so every fucking DPS I had to heal through standing in "color of the day fire" would know they fucked up:

Neranja · Feb 7, 2022

Chris said:
The problem WoW has is that it's strengths, which were the free to explore open world and the responsive combat; have been severely weakened by the post-cataclysm doctrine of linear quest hubs and total class rewrites.

This has been a streamlined in WoW to what people back in the day called "quest grind". Yeah, most people weren't fond of that either.

Funnily enough, in WoW you could level 15 to max level just by sitting in your city and spam LFD. Then they nerfed it, because they wanted the players to interact with the world, and at max level they now have no ideas what to do with an open world anymore, except to repeat the same quests you already did as "world quests."

Chris said:
Ironically WoW now has an MSQ, except it's not functional since it's missed the old backstory and they keep cutting bits out because they can't be bothered maintaining old systems. Oh and they have Californians write the story, who are now apparently the most dumbed down and propagandised people in the west.

Let's not pretend that this wasn't a contentious point in the WoW community as well. On one hand you could see which quests were important, and on the other hand you are forced to do them, as to unlock all four Shadowlands zones, because you get to taste the covenants before committing to one. Basically all secondary power systems in Shadowlands hinge on those covenants, especially on their renown grind.

Chris · Feb 7, 2022

Neranja said:
This has been a streamlined in WoW to what people back in the day called "quest grind". Yeah, most people weren't fond of that either.

Funnily enough, in WoW you could level 15 to max level just by sitting in your city and spam LFD. Then they nerfed it, because they wanted the players to interact with the world, and at max level they now have no ideas what to do with an open world anymore, except to repeat the same quests you already did as "world quests."

Let's not pretend that this wasn't a contentious point in the WoW community as well. On one hand you could see which quests were important, and on the other hand you are forced to do them, as to unlock all four Shadowlands zones, because you get to taste the covenants before committing to one. Basically all secondary power systems in Shadowlands hinge on those covenants, especially on their renown grind.

Doesn't matter how negative the community thought about it, that's what the game is now.

WoW has a MSQ with less filler cutscenes (good), less epic cutscenes (bad), more bear ass filler quests (bad) and a retarded overaching story (fandom destroying). Oh and only 50-60 is compulsory so new players don't know who the fuck any of the characters are and even veterans have no idea who The Jailer is.

Neranja · Feb 7, 2022

Chris said:
Doesn't matter how negative the community thought about it, that's what the game is now. [...] and a retarded overaching story (fandom destroying).

Yes and no. If you want your game to be successful, you have to cater to your audience. This is what makes FFXIV successful, too, because it knows where it came from, and what players expect from a Final Fantasy game. For example, if you don't have chocobos you're out.

The biggest problem WoW has right now, is that it doesn't understand its own audience. You have a high end raider after being promoted from raid encounter designer leading the whole show in a direction where basically everything in game is trying to funnel players into the raids, and at the same time no one has any idea for horizontal content. Everything has to be power progression related, even open world things.

Meanwhile, the super casuals are happy because they get "mountsmogscheevos," they can farm from two expansions ago, but the core audience is lost. Mainly because the game tries really hard to reinvent itself with each expansion, and now each patch. How many Warlock class revamps did this game have? Or Shadow Priest? What was wrong with the MoP ones?

phisey · Feb 7, 2022

Chris said:
Remember that you only ever need to do the MSQ once and by lv80 it's some of the best storytelling in gaming history.

If they don't enjoy curated storytelling in MMOs, or worse hate JRPG tropes and aesthetics, then it won't be the best storytelling in RPG history. It'll be the most irritating letdown after 400-500 hours of fedex and collection quests in any game.

You're not doing the player a service by suggesting that the gameplay will ever earn their subscription as much as the storytelling and the fantasy of belonging to that story. No amount of tight gameplay and banging their heads on something like Omega 12s or Baldesion Arsenal will redeem the game if all their skills and key gameplay features are locked behind an MSQ they loathe.

If they don't enjoy the game as it's presented, you're not only wasting their time but you're probably not doing the game's reputation any favors either. If the story-driven nature of the game only dawns on them after they've smashed their faces getting that ultra-rare mount to realize that nobody gives a shit about endgame raider swag, they're just going to be even more vocal about what they perceive about the game's shortcomings.

Neranja · Feb 7, 2022

phisey said:
Do you think the dungeons and raids are good enough to sustain the interest of players who are irritated by playing through the MSQ at all?

I'd like to point out that the presentation in the dungeons/trials are better than WoW's, but only because they are relevant to the story. Everything lighting up and Bahamut going teraflare on your ass with the music going overdrive doesn't nearly hit as hard unless you have been "tempered" by the previous coil turns and all the story surrounding it.

phisey · Feb 7, 2022

Neranja said:
I'd like to point out that the presentation in the dungeons/trials are better than WoW's

I agree and I never disputed that even when Chris brought it up earlier.

But it doesn't answer the question: as great as the dungeons and the raids are, and I agree they're superbly crafted and challenging at the right levels, do you think it's enough to earn the subscription fees of someone who hates the main storyline, loathes the fedex questing and can't stand the weeb tropes and aesthetics?

I think it's pretty binary based on that question. If you have even the barest exposure to JRPGs and anime tropes, then there's literally no way FFXIV isn't GOAT material for you. If not, then save your money, it will never click.

Ehrgeix · Feb 7, 2022

phisey said:
Do you think the dungeons and raids are good enough to sustain the interest of players who are irritated by playing through the MSQ at all? If not, then you're not disagreeing at all.

I don't see how folks who are turned off by weeb culture and repetitive fetch/kill quests of the MSQ are being helped by people insisting they'll somehow enjoy it after 300+ hours of irritation.

The game won't be redeemed by satisfying feedback loops or clutch raid gameplay videos at the endgame. It's definitely redeemed by Emmet Selch's arc or the Archons' growth or Ishikawa's writing. If none of those interest the player, then it's never redeemed at all.

Have you done savage/ult/solo deep dungeons etc? There's definitely some satisfying gameplay at the end - I know a fair few people who skip all cutscenes and just raid.

Neranja · Feb 7, 2022

phisey said:
do you think it's enough to earn the subscription fees of someone who hates the main storyline, loathes the fedex questing and can't stand the weeb tropes and aesthetics?

I should've made myself clearer: No, because those are only like 25% of the game. If you don't like the majority of the game, and the story is uninteresting to you, why bother?

The story, those "weeb aesthetics" are part of the presentation, and what elevates those dungeons/trials for many people: because they have an emotional attachment to them and the parts of the story they are attached to.

So why bother convincing someone to play a game he doesn't like?

phisey · Feb 7, 2022

Ehrgeix said:
Have you done savage/ult/solo deep dungeons etc? There's definitely some satisfying gameplay at the end - I know a fair few people who skip all cutscenes and just raid.

Highest savage I did was O12s for the mount back when it was current. I did Eureka and ran tons of Baldesion Arsenal runs when that came out, which is probably one of the most fun raiding/endgame content I've ever done in any MMO.

I did the relic grinds at the end of shadowbringers and got most of the Bozjan/Dalriada stuff before I quit but those weren't anywhere near as engaging as Eureka imo. I did PoTD/HoH to plevel my dps jobs and that probably contributed to my quitting the game. I don't know anyone who just skips the MSQ cutscenes and plays the game for the world first race or uber raider props, but I suppose they could exist. On the other hand I know tons of people who were hardcore EVE pvpers who play the game to water their gardens and tweak their in-game sofas just so.

Once again, no one is denying that there is an endgame. Nobody has even complained about the game degrading to a daily duty finder grind to top off your weekly tokens or the whole crafting universe or any other game system FFXIV has to offer. I don't think any of that, as much as I enjoyed it, would be enough to entice the subscription from people who still loathe the FFXIV msq experience by the time Heavensward rolls around.

... · Feb 7, 2022

not that it'll help but i now realize i should have suggested palace of the dead as a way to feel what a class is at higher level.

Chris · Feb 7, 2022

What weeb trops and aesthetics does this game have? People keep saying it but I don't think there's that many.

phisey · Feb 7, 2022

You know, weeb shit. It's all over the game. They couldn't hide it if they tried, and they don't try. If you have trouble seeing it, you might be too immersed in weeb shit to distinguish it from normal western fantasy.

Even when asian devs try to go grimdark/gothic fantasy, they can't help but be absolute weebs. If you don't see the weeb shit in this, you're probably a hapless weeb:

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Final Fantasy XIV (Guide in first post)

phisey

Buzzfeed Editor

Chris

Potato del Grande

Neranja

Khalan

Trakanon Raider

Chris

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phisey

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Chris

Potato del Grande

Neranja

Neranja

Chris

Potato del Grande

Neranja

phisey

Buzzfeed Editor

Neranja

phisey

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Ehrgeix

Trakanon Raider

Neranja

phisey

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Chris

Potato del Grande

phisey

Buzzfeed Editor