GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

Screamfeeder · Aug 10, 2017

Olebass said:
Not taking the time to realize that saying 1000 ships was a mistake when it could have been as effective using another term that sets up no expectation that can be proven to be impossible given the source of other materials and time frame accomplished is lazy posting. A person of self worth and desire to improve would look at that and state it could have been written better. A person who doesn't would defend it as perfect as otherwise it would instill doubt and everything becomes a routine of second guessing your own work.
View attachment 151041

Ok...Let's look at the actual line from the script.

EURON
Won't be enough to save them.
Go back to your homes.
Chop down every tree you can find.
Quarter-saw the timber and start building.
I want every man bending planks.
I want every woman spinning flax for sails.
Build me a thousand ships and I will give you this world.

That is the line as written in the 605 Shooting Script (they might have a version I don't have available to me, but that is the approved shooting script).

Now, let's do the Olebass way...

EURON
Won't be enough to save them.
Go back to your homes.
Chop down every tree you can find.
Quarter-saw the timber and start building.
I want every man bending planks.
I want every woman spinning flax for sails.
Build me some more ships and I will give you this world.

Yeah, I'm going with the thousand line simply because it's more DRAMATIC in a show that is built around DRAMA. Do I see you getting uppity about Arya actually having a Face? I mean, they are called The Faceless Men (MEN?? SHE IS A WOMAN?!?! LAZY WRITING!!!) and you can clearly see, she has a face. Many of them. They should have written it as "Many Faces Assassin Clan" so as to not be so lazy.

I am sure the writers realized a bunch of nerds are going to do the math for exactly how many trees are still alive on the Iron Islands and calculate birthrates for the last few generations and come up with an exact time frame and material cost for building 999+1 ships and you know what, who gives a flying fuck. This is NOT a show about the production and manpower cost of a reaving, maritime power in a land populated with undead kings and flying lizards that breath fire.

If

Oldbased is going to give notes on a script, he better have a damn good reason for it. Just coming at it with "well I am going to take this one line literally and not the rest of the hyperbolic shit others have said during the entire run of this show" is NOT a good reason. If we applied your metric for good writing to the entire show, then we would have 400 seasons of Ned and Robert still talking about the logistics of getting that many people moving into and out of Winterfell before heading back to Kings Landing.

Cad · Aug 10, 2017

Screamfeeder said:
Can someone give me a specific example of the "lazy writing" and how they would have made it not lazy?

Lazy or bad writing is essentially making your characters do something dumb or out of character in order to advance the plot in the direction you intend, rather than correctly setting up circumstances so that even when your character does the "smart thing", whatever interesting things you wanted to have happen in the plot still happen.

See e.g. Daenerys and friends just arbitrarily deciding not to use all of their advantages so they can be whittled away one by one to make the battle against the Lannisters more believable.

McCheese · Aug 10, 2017

Cad said:
Lazy or bad writing is essentially making your characters do something dumb or out of character in order to advance the plot in the direction you intend, rather than correctly setting up circumstances so that even when your character does the "smart thing", whatever interesting things you wanted to have happen in the plot still happen.

See e.g. Daenerys and friends just arbitrarily deciding not to use all of their advantages so they can be whittled away one by one to make the battle against the Lannisters more believable.

That wasn't an arbitrary decision at all. She wanted to obliterate King's Landing with her dragons and armies, but Tyrion talked her out of it with a very reasonable argument. It made perfect sense in the context of the universe and the way characters act.

Soygen · Aug 10, 2017

Screamfeeder said:
Ok...Let's look at the actual line from the script.

EURON
Won't be enough to save them.
Go back to your homes.
Chop down every tree you can find.
Quarter-saw the timber and start building.
I want every man bending planks.
I want every woman spinning flax for sails.
Build me a thousand ships and I will give you this world.

That is the line as written in the 605 Shooting Script (they might have a version I don't have available to me, but that is the approved shooting script).

Now, let's do the Olebass way...

EURON
Won't be enough to save them.
Go back to your homes.
Chop down every tree you can find.
Quarter-saw the timber and start building.
I want every man bending planks.
I want every woman spinning flax for sails.
Build me some more ships and I will give you this world.

Yeah, I'm going with the thousand line simply because it's more DRAMATIC in a show that is built around DRAMA. Do I see you getting uppity about Arya actually having a Face? I mean, they are called The Faceless Men (MEN?? SHE IS A WOMAN?!?! LAZY WRITING!!!) and you can clearly see, she has a face. Many of them. They should have written it as "Many Faces Assassin Clan" so as to not be so lazy.

I am sure the writers realized a bunch of nerds are going to do the math for exactly how many trees are still alive on the Iron Islands and calculate birthrates for the last few generations and come up with an exact time frame and material cost for building 999+1 ships and you know what, who gives a flying fuck. This is NOT a show about the production and manpower cost of a reaving, maritime power in a land populated with undead kings and flying lizards that breath fire.

If Oldbased is going to give notes on a script, he better have a damn good reason for it. Just coming at it with "well I am going to take this one line literally and not the rest of the hyperbolic shit others have said during the entire run of this show" is NOT a good reason. If we applied your metric for good writing to the entire show, then we would have 400 seasons of Ned and Robert still talking about the logistics of getting that many people moving into and out of Winterfell before heading back to Kings Landing.

"Build me a fleet" would have sounded grand without tying it to an unbelievable number. That said, I mostly agree with you. I don't really nitpick all this shit.

Screamfeeder · Aug 10, 2017

Cad said:
Lazy or bad writing is essentially making your characters do something dumb or out of character in order to advance the plot in the direction you intend, rather than correctly setting up circumstances so that even when your character does the "smart thing", whatever interesting things you wanted to have happen in the plot still happen.

See e.g. Daenerys and friends just arbitrarily deciding not to use all of their advantages so they can be whittled away one by one to make the battle against the Lannisters more believable.

We use something called Dramatic Irony in writing (especially in television drama). It's when the audience knows something that the characters in the show do not. This is a perfect case of that. Daenerys has no idea what the Lannisters are planning. She has no idea about the Iron Fleet. She just wants to NOT cause undue death and destruction to the city she hopes to rule as a savior. How is that bad writing? We got to witness Dany and Tyrion being valnurable in their exact weak points (they are NOT war commanders) while setting up a simple ass-kicking dragon battle as payback.

Again, how is that bad writing? How would you have done it differently?

Screamfeeder · Aug 10, 2017

Soygen said:
"Build me a fleet" would have sounded grand without tying it to an unbelievable number. That said, I mostly agree with you. I don't really nitpick all this shit.

Meh, you can interject a thousand (heh) different phrases in there that might sound good, but I would probably still sign off on the thousand ships line because of just how ludicrously grand it sounds (remember they talked about the size of the Iron Fleet being around a few hundred earlier).

McCheese · Aug 10, 2017

Screamfeeder said:
We use something called Dramatic Irony in writing (especially in television drama). It's when the audience knows something that the characters in the show do not. This is a perfect case of that. Daenerys has no idea what the Lannisters are planning. She has no idea about the Iron Fleet. She just wants to NOT cause undue death and destruction to the city she hopes to rule as a savior. How is that bad writing? We got to witness Dany and Tyrion being valnurable in their exact weak points (they are NOT war commanders) while setting up a simple ass-kicking dragon battle as payback.

Again, how is that bad writing? How would you have done it differently?

Apparently bad writing is when the idiot viewer is too busy brushing Doritos dust off his shirt to actually, you know, watch the fucking show and pay attention.

Soygen · Aug 10, 2017

Screamfeeder said:
Meh, you can interject a thousand (heh) different phrases in there that might sound good, but I would probably still sign off on the thousand ships line because of just how ludicrously grand it sounds (remember they talked about the size of the Iron Fleet being around a few hundred earlier).

Well I mean...the complaints are all stemming from how ludicrous it sounded.

Cad · Aug 10, 2017

Screamfeeder said:
We use something called Dramatic Irony in writing (especially in television drama). It's when the audience knows something that the characters in the show do not. This is a perfect case of that. Daenerys has no idea what the Lannisters are planning. She has no idea about the Iron Fleet. She just wants to NOT cause undue death and destruction to the city she hopes to rule as a savior. How is that bad writing? We got to witness Dany and Tyrion being valnurable in their exact weak points (they are NOT war commanders) while setting up a simple ass-kicking dragon battle as payback.

Again, how is that bad writing? How would you have done it differently?

She has an unstoppable army + air support and no holdings to defend, zero reason to split her forces up, and "enemies" everywhere. The proper course would have been to stay together, go from one place to the next and just... not cause undue death and destruction, but proceed with overwhelming force. Makes zero sense in any scenario for her to split up and send forces independently other than artificial plot device.

Oldbased · Aug 10, 2017

Screamfeeder said:
Ok...Let's look at the actual line from the script.

EURON
Won't be enough to save them.
Go back to your homes.
Chop down every tree you can find.
Quarter-saw the timber and start building.
I want every man bending planks.
I want every woman spinning flax for sails.
Build me a thousand ships and I will give you this world.

That is the line as written in the 605 Shooting Script (they might have a version I don't have available to me, but that is the approved shooting script).

Now, let's do the Olebass way...

EURON
Won't be enough to save them.
Go back to your homes.
Chop down every tree you can find.
Quarter-saw the timber and start building.
I want every man bending planks.
I want every woman spinning flax for sails.
Build me some more ships and I will give you this world.

Yeah, I'm going with the thousand line simply because it's more DRAMATIC in a show that is built around DRAMA. Do I see you getting uppity about Arya actually having a Face? I mean, they are called The Faceless Men (MEN?? SHE IS A WOMAN?!?! LAZY WRITING!!!) and you can clearly see, she has a face. Many of them. They should have written it as "Many Faces Assassin Clan" so as to not be so lazy.

I am sure the writers realized a bunch of nerds are going to do the math for exactly how many trees are still alive on the Iron Islands and calculate birthrates for the last few generations and come up with an exact time frame and material cost for building 999+1 ships and you know what, who gives a flying fuck. This is NOT a show about the production and manpower cost of a reaving, maritime power in a land populated with undead kings and flying lizards that breath fire.

If Oldbased is going to give notes on a script, he better have a damn good reason for it. Just coming at it with "well I am going to take this one line literally and not the rest of the hyperbolic shit others have said during the entire run of this show" is NOT a good reason. If we applied your metric for good writing to the entire show, then we would have 400 seasons of Ned and Robert still talking about the logistics of getting that many people moving into and out of Winterfell before heading back to Kings Landing.

The issue is I would never say build me some more ships. Your argument is based on the assumption that over exaggerating something in a numerical value is the only way to product a more dramatic effect. You could easily fill in a number of dramatic words and achieve the same effect or greater without using a numerical value.

Additionally, no I really don't need a damn good reason to do anything. I am not being paid to do it and I damn well didn't write the many articles floating around on the internet, which whom also got paid, criticizing it.
I do have my right of opinion however and found it lazy.

McCheese · Aug 10, 2017

I can't wait till the special edition DVDs in a few years where they dub in "build me 279 boats" and CGI a forest into the background of the scene to ensure continuity and clarity for the unwashed masses.

Soygen · Aug 10, 2017

McCheese said:
I can't wait till the special edition DVDs in a few years where they dub in "build me 279 boats" and CGI a forest into the background of the scene to ensure continuity and clarity for the unwashed masses.

Each episode will also include a prologue scene with the Night's King explaining what is happening and how long it's been since each event. I imagine it kind of like the Crypt Keeper's intros to each episode of Tales from the Crypt.

Abefroman · Aug 10, 2017

Cad said:
She has an unstoppable army + air support and no holdings to defend, zero reason to split her forces up, and "enemies" everywhere. The proper course would have been to stay together, go from one place to the next and just... not cause undue death and destruction, but proceed with overwhelming force. Makes zero sense in any scenario for her to split up and send forces independently other than artificial plot device.

I'm not so sure of that. I am an expert in seige warfare since I played Guild Wars 2 and if you zerg ball everything, people just bail and retake what you leave.

Screamfeeder · Aug 10, 2017

Cad said:
She has an unstoppable army + air support and no holdings to defend, zero reason to split her forces up, and "enemies" everywhere. The proper course would have been to stay together, go from one place to the next and just... not cause undue death and destruction, but proceed with overwhelming force. Makes zero sense in any scenario for her to split up and send forces independently other than artificial plot device.

So you're saying her and Tyrion are not war commanders and made a mistake? Wow, looks like the writing on the show made that pretty clear. Good job writers...

Dramatic Irony Cad. YOU know what the perfect solution is, but the characters do not. You need to make conflict. Her simply peacefully zerging across the countryside the rest of the show isn't really....dramatic.

Olebass said:
The issue is I would never say build me some more ships. Your argument is based on the assumption that over exaggerating something in a numerical value is the only way to product a more dramatic effect. You could easily fill in a number of dramatic words and achieve the same effect or greater without using a numerical value.

And like I told Soygen, I would have left it in because it was grandious after they talked about the entire fleet only being a few hundred ships (and point of fact, you only ever see a few dozen of these ships in any of the scenes and yet you never once complained about the numerous times they talked about the hundreds of ships in the Iron Fleet).

You have every right to bitch, but calling it "lazy" writing because you happen to run a ship-yard that specializes in the manufacture of Fantasy Viking Ships and you take offense at your work being marginalized as easy is just silly.

I understand you have your opinion and I have mine in calling your opinion even sillier.

Merrith · Aug 10, 2017

McCheese said:
I can't wait till the special edition DVDs in a few years where they dub in "build me 279 boats" and CGI a forest into the background of the scene to ensure continuity and clarity for the unwashed masses.

This is pure fucking gold.

Cad · Aug 10, 2017

Screamfeeder said:
So you're saying her and Tyrion are not war commanders and made a mistake? Wow, looks like the writing on the show made that pretty clear. Good job writers...

Dramatic Irony Cad. YOU know what the perfect solution is, but the characters do not. You need to make conflict. Her simply peacefully zerging across the countryside the rest of the show isn't really....dramatic.

Thats fine, but I see making contrived bad decisions in order to create drama as bad writing. The drama should be created by the circumstances and the careful story you wove, not by forcing your characters into boneheaded mistakes for dumb fucking reasons.

Oldbased · Aug 10, 2017

Screamfeeder said:
So you're saying her and Tyrion are not war commanders and made a mistake? Wow, looks like the writing on the show made that pretty clear. Good job writers...

Dramatic Irony Cad. YOU know what the perfect solution is, but the characters do not. You need to make conflict. Her simply peacefully zerging across the countryside the rest of the show isn't really....dramatic.

And like I told Soygen, I would have left it in because it was grandious after they talked about the entire fleet only being a few hundred ships (and point of face, you only ever see a few dozen of these ships in any of the scenes).

You have every right to bitch, but calling it "lazy" writing because you happen to run a ship-yard that specializes in the manufacture of Fantasy Viking Ships and you take offense at your work being marginalized as easy is just silly.

The assumption for lazy comes from what I expect how this all gets wrote to begin with.
How do they handle it? When writing scenes such as this is a group given a pile of source material and some time to go through specifics of data such as names, events, locations to base the story off of, then gather in a room and step through a 10 minute scene basing dialogue to fit the desired event and brainstorm the wording into a pool of thoughts of this would be better if we said this, no this, or that. Maybe this!

Or is it assigned to a person then tore apart with corrections at a later time from multiple people reviewing it?
I just can't imagine a group of people sitting around coming up with this great story and no one going, we should use words that meet the effect but at the same time not say something impossible to accomplish. Unless it was on a Friday and no opiate day. Then I would totally understand.

BoozeCube · Aug 10, 2017

Honestly I don't care about the 1000 boats line, what I consider lazy writing in this is that pretty much the entire history of Enron was removed from the show. There is zero reason to be emotionally invested in this character good/bad who fucking cares. He isn't a Joffrey, or Ramsey. He is just a randomly appearing character who is meant to be badass but they skipped all dialog detail as to why

Compare this to Oberyn another character who in the show appears out of nowhere but they take the time to give some backstory and context as to why he is badass.

Cad · Aug 10, 2017

Screamfeeder said:
EURON
Won't be enough to save them.
Go back to your homes.
Chop down every tree you can find.
Quarter-saw the timber and start building.
I want every man bending planks.
I want every woman spinning flax for sails.
Build me a thousand ships and I will give you this world.

What did those people eat while they were chopping down the nonexistent trees and building ships instead of feeding themselves like they were doing prior?

Screamfeeder · Aug 10, 2017

Cad said:
Thats fine, but I see making contrived bad decisions in order to create drama as bad writing. The drama should be created by the circumstances and the careful story you wove, not by forcing your characters into boneheaded mistakes for dumb fucking reasons.

How is it contrived? Do we have evidence of Tyrion and Dany being Supreme Commanders of Military Forces that I am just unaware of? Dany fumblefucked, lucked or burninated her way into power in the East which is exactly what Tyrion advised her NOT to do in Westeros. Tyrion was a decent platoon leader and got his nose chopped off once, but last I checked he even stated he left warefare to his brother (the brother that is GOOD at the shit that led to Dany and Tyrion fucking up).

You aren't really making a good case here...

The writing was exactly FOR the circumstances. Dany had NO idea about the Lannister army OR the Iron Fleet. Those are the circumstances that were created.

GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

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