that"s taking the idea and stretching it a bit far there. some games have had success with random content. diablo2 proves you can keep a narrative going while still using random content. dwarf fortress shows what happens when it"s all random. am i saying completely focus the game around it? no, but it is a tool that could be used. doing a group quest that sends you to "random_spawn_goblin_cave" would be more interesting then "copy_pasted_generic_cave".Utnayan said:
Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling
- Thread starter Lord Thanos_foh
- Start date
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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I admittedly did there. But I would rather see designed content everywhere, even if it gets stale on my 4th alt, than doing the same thing with random wording which doesn"t tie into the world, while knowing it is random. It works in other genres, but kills immersion in a persistent world.findar said:
Diablo 3, sure. An MMORPG, where the world is supposed to remain static or alter based on a course of events, not randomly, no. (Just my opinion here)
I"m not sure if you ever played Anarchy Online, but their Mission System sent you to a random instance portal and you"d get a varying degree of settings and enemies. It was fun for the first 10-20 levels, but eventually just became a veil for the grind, and all you did was look for the reward and how far away the instance was; all the environments became moot.findar said:
To make quests more interesting (for me, anyway) would require a system that offers quest based on how the world changes as a result of the player base"s actions. For example--and I think I used this earlier, or in another thread--if a lot of players use a small village to sell their loot and restock their supplies, over time the village will grow, offering more services (blacksmith, trade skill masters, more wares to buy, etc.) as well as "random" quests relevant to the area surrounding that village. As these quests are completed, the village grows further, offering higher-tier quests (for groups or perhaps even players normally above the level range for that area), and so forth.
It"s not a simple task by any means (how do you get players to explore the rest of the world? how will late-comers get to see that content? what happens after players leave the village"s area? how do you balance this content around the rest of the game?) but I would take more interest in the world and the lore if my actions were visibly having an impact on the game world like that.
Oh i agree. But there are situations where it could be useful. Similar to Oblivion where you had gates popping up you had to close... maybe some underground denizen popped open a cave(instance portal) you had to go in and kill him to re-close it, optionally of course. Or on your way to Goblin_Lord you had to clear out a random dungeon to pick up the 3 keys to his throne room. It"s masking the problem of content creation clearly, but it varies the world some. Players just consume way too much content.Utnayan said:
cad: That is kind of what i had in mind, but not in the sense that it overwhelms the experience.
Zehnpai
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Haha wow, I forgot about that post. Yeah, not being able to see the benefits of the job system is ridiculously short sighted. There"s literally only one draw-back to it and that"s the development team would be encouraged to let all races be all classes and most deveopers get sandy in their vagina"s if they can"t "lol realism!" restrict race/class combo"s.Flight said:
There"s so many benefits it"s mind boggling that this wouldn"t be #1 on your feature list.
Anyways...
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
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Diablo2 wasn"t so much about the game though as it was character building. Diablo/Mephisto were slot machines and you were gunning for ridiculous stats.
MMO"s as made obvious by how much we hated random loot during the T1/T2 days don"t quite translate as well. Casuals enjoyed LDoN because it was the first time in a long time you could get relatively decent gear for normal effort. But nobody really gave a shit about what little story there was to be had.
CoH is more like Diablo2 then any other game to be honest. You run randomly generated dungeons and kill randomly generated bosses and it"s all to build a character.
Anyways...
MMO"s as made obvious by how much we hated random loot during the T1/T2 days don"t quite translate as well. Casuals enjoyed LDoN because it was the first time in a long time you could get relatively decent gear for normal effort. But nobody really gave a shit about what little story there was to be had.
CoH is more like Diablo2 then any other game to be honest. You run randomly generated dungeons and kill randomly generated bosses and it"s all to build a character.
Anyways...
Azrayne
Irenicus did nothing wrong
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What I wouldn"t give to be able to read Ngruk"s PM inbox for a day. The level of sycophancy must be off the charts.Genjiro said:
The thing I find interesting is that we really don"t know anything about the game yet, people aren"t basing all of this on anything other than the fact that some famous sports star is making it, and really, how does throwing a ball around a field qualify one to make good games?
I"m not saying Curt is a bad game developer, just that we don"t know he"s a good one yet. There"s as much a chance of this being VG2.0 as there is of it being the second coming (more, if we go by the trend of previous MMO"s), and as much as I"d like to believe 38 studios have learned from the mistakes of the past, it would be silly of me to not do the same and be very cautious about getting excited until we have some solid info.
Zehnpai
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I will admit I applied for a job there but I think they realized the first time anyone suggested EQ-style AA"s or forced grouping I"d black out and 3 days later wake up to find that the entire building had been burned down and everybody and their families and everybody they loved had been brutally murdered that I might not be a good candidate.Azrayne said:
But yeah, only a few people already believe 38 is going to usher in a new era of golden gaming or some suchness. For the last 80 pages all we"ve really done is shown Curt why he shouldn"t hire people from this thread because why the fuck pay me to be a genius when I"m perfectly willing to be a genius for free?
Part of why I value my anonymity as you mentioned earlier is that when I"m posting here I"m generally speaking of my personal preferences and experiences. I like my opinions to be taken as they are: Opinions, nothing more, nothing less. I"m not often talking about what Copernicus is or what is or is not but I"m giving my personal philosophies.Flight said:
One of the things to keep in mind with any MMO is that they are not singularly driven by an individual, they are too big for that. They are influenced and built by a collective team. If you"re smart you listen to the wisdom of the team which may have different views from yourself, but you"d be ignorant (and arrogant) to ignore them. It"s the same reason I read this (and several other) forums, there are perspectives I"d never see or consider otherwise.
In short: Just because I don"t like a concept as a player does not mean I think it"s always a bad idea. And many ideas, given the right context become great ideas. Whether they make it into Copernicus depends on if it fits. And when you"re very focused on what you"re trying to make then it becomes obvious what does and does not work.
Flight said:
Let me flip this around a bit then. The benefits to the final fantasy job system are good for their game.Zehn - Vhex said:
But since there is a tradeoff for everything what did they give up?
What was made weaker or what was missing because this was included?
How is this any better than having multiple characters with multiple classes and couldn"t be solved in other ways?
And if it is so obvious of a benefit for every game why has it not been used in any game since?
I"ll be honest, I"m not convinced it"s worth the cost, but I like hearing other opinions.
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
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The feature by itself weakens literally nothing. It"s only if you have to choose between features that this becomes an issue. And when it comes to low investment time to high return this feature is a pretty huge trump card. I"d still be doing Naxx if I could get the gear for my alts.Dymus said:
I mean how much do you sacrafice to let players make alts. Some database space? This is like alts on crack.
The alternative as suggested by players is simply making all "Bind on pickup" items bind on account, making all character flags and reputation account wide and so on and so forth.
The big thing here is identity. My characters name is Zehn and has been Zehn for a long time. I"d like to be Zehn. CoH had identity or whatever so that people could message you on all your alts if they knew your identity. You could design around it to give the same benefit but you might as well Occam"s Razor that shit. Or hell, give some intern 50 bucks and some experience to pad his resume with and do both.
Working PvP being in at launch is also an obvious benefit and that seems to be lacking these days too. WoW has started down this path sorta. With a simple talent swap I can tank, heal or dps. It"s so much nicer then having to roll up a new character, gear them up, do all my rep grinds, etc...etc...etc...
What"s the cost? What about the job system takes so much time that it forces you to give up on a major feature. Anyways, supposed to be paying attention to the raid so I"m gonna alt-tab back in.
There is a cost, to everything. Unless the job system is a core system feature there is a definitive cost to it.Zehn - Vhex said:
It was one of the early lessons I had to be taught, there is a cost to everything. One of the key components of pre-production was in defining the parameters around "cost" in time and money, literally, to make the game.
At the end of pre-production your tools are done, or very close, and there is a metric ton of "stuff" done, that allows you to literally sit down, pull out a calculator, do the math, and know when you will be done making the game.
You create enough "stuff" so that to green light into development you have enough in the way of tools that you can compute the man hours needed to get to completion. A zone, completely finished and game ready, takes x months. You need x zones at launch, x times y = completion date.
There"s a ton that is going on in addition to this, but on a very good team with exceptional tools I never realized that it does come down to simple math.
Again there are a lot of assumptions there, first and foremost that your game is kick ass fun, and unique, different and all the things it needs to be to get hundreds of thousands, to millions of players wanting to play.
That math plus a legitimate time allotment to pre-launch testing = a whole lot more time and money than I ever thought
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
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Right, I mentioned that already. My question wasn"t what"s the tradeoff so much as what about the job system would take so much time that it would cost you other features?
I had a really long post following this but I read it like 3 times and I was boring myself just reading it. I"m going to cliff notes myself here. I have plenty of programming experience and plenty of corporate environment experience so I understand all to well the cost involved in doing anything.
I"d like to hope the concept of the job system is neat enough that you"d discuss it anyways so the table time is already there. And if you"re going to be allowing players to have alts then you"re already taking the programming time since all you"d be doing is changing how you access your "alts."
In the end, I think the miscommunication here is that I think of the job system as a replacement for the alt system and all the resources that you were already going to spend on alts you spend on jobs, whereas you"re viewing it as a whole new feature like if WoW were to add Naval combat or player housing.
I had a really long post following this but I read it like 3 times and I was boring myself just reading it. I"m going to cliff notes myself here. I have plenty of programming experience and plenty of corporate environment experience so I understand all to well the cost involved in doing anything.
I"d like to hope the concept of the job system is neat enough that you"d discuss it anyways so the table time is already there. And if you"re going to be allowing players to have alts then you"re already taking the programming time since all you"d be doing is changing how you access your "alts."
In the end, I think the miscommunication here is that I think of the job system as a replacement for the alt system and all the resources that you were already going to spend on alts you spend on jobs, whereas you"re viewing it as a whole new feature like if WoW were to add Naval combat or player housing.
Let"s make sure everyone is on the same page here. It seems we are, but you never know. There are two elements to the job system. Job simply == class.
i) All characters can level all jobs. They can only level one at a time. They have to level each legitimately and their level in each job is saved when they change jobs.
ii) From level 15 the sub-job system is in effect. Characters can choose a second, sub job which is static, doesn"t gain XP and is capped at half the level of the main job and gives the benefits thereof.
We are discussing i) without ii)
i) All characters can level all jobs. They can only level one at a time. They have to level each legitimately and their level in each job is saved when they change jobs.
ii) From level 15 the sub-job system is in effect. Characters can choose a second, sub job which is static, doesn"t gain XP and is capped at half the level of the main job and gives the benefits thereof.
We are discussing i) without ii)
Azrayne
Irenicus did nothing wrong
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Am I the only one who hates the idea of a job system?
I like creating different characters for each class, I"d get sick of staring at the same damn character for years on end, but convincing yourself to reroll with multiple classes worth of effort invested would be impossible.
Much better system is to not put in massive faction grinds that have to be done for every character to be viable. Either make it transferrable, or account wide, or give substantial bonuses if you"ve already done it on that account.
The "job system" takes a lot of the "rpg" out of MMORPG.
I like creating different characters for each class, I"d get sick of staring at the same damn character for years on end, but convincing yourself to reroll with multiple classes worth of effort invested would be impossible.
Much better system is to not put in massive faction grinds that have to be done for every character to be viable. Either make it transferrable, or account wide, or give substantial bonuses if you"ve already done it on that account.
The "job system" takes a lot of the "rpg" out of MMORPG.
Firstly, the job system doesn"t replace alts. Anyone who wants to can still roll an alt. This has benefits in some MMOs, but not necessarily all. In FFXI the benefit is that each of the races has more/less affinity and benefit to the varying stats and skills. Hence, for example, no race can touch a Taru (little cute pokemon guy) at Magic. A human is the best all rounder but there are few jobs they are the best at. Disregarding any potential benefits (which some MMOS don"t supply via race choice) people who want to can still roll an alt and many do in FFXI. So much so that SE"s revenue model is such that they charge additional subscription per character slot.
BENEFITS
1. Character attachment. This, for some, goes back to my suggestion that people want to live in a persistent online world, not just play a game in it. I want to be Flight. And, when I play another class, I"d like to still be Flight.
2.It is impossible to put into words how much replayability the job system generates.After leveling through a system once or twice, the process becomes more and more of a grind. When you are doing this repeatedly on the same character it doesn"t feel like a grind at all.
It gives the illusion of increasing the power of your character, when, of course, you are not.
To appreciate what I am saying, you need to know that the leveling process in FFXI has historically been one of the poorest designed in any MMO. Yet we still rave about and go back to it, because of the job system (and the elemental combat system and trade skills).
DRAWBACKS
1. Equipment can be re-used. Players don"t see this as a drawback, they, of course, see it as a massive win. It isn"t necessarily a win for the game, though.
1(a). 1 produces a need for much more inventory and bank space. Players will accumulate multiple sets of equipment.
2. It"s going to take a lot more work for a story driven MMO a la Copernicus, than pre-existing MMOs, if, as is likely, there is a quest and story system in place which is class dependent.
3. Itmayreduce role playing and immersion. But it can also enhance it. Take our little Taru friend - he"s great at magic, but far from the best Warrior, but many people love playing their little Taru Black Mage as a melee because of their attachment to him. And, of course, if he goes Paladin or Ninja he has a massive mana pool.
In summary, you question if the benefits are worth the cost. How much is a system worth, that will provide years of replayability, that will have a player go through painstakingly designed content 7 or 8 times instead of 1 or 2 times and still feel fresh and yet not increase the power of the character, the player or the class one iota ?
.
BENEFITS
1. Character attachment. This, for some, goes back to my suggestion that people want to live in a persistent online world, not just play a game in it. I want to be Flight. And, when I play another class, I"d like to still be Flight.
2.It is impossible to put into words how much replayability the job system generates.After leveling through a system once or twice, the process becomes more and more of a grind. When you are doing this repeatedly on the same character it doesn"t feel like a grind at all.
It gives the illusion of increasing the power of your character, when, of course, you are not.
To appreciate what I am saying, you need to know that the leveling process in FFXI has historically been one of the poorest designed in any MMO. Yet we still rave about and go back to it, because of the job system (and the elemental combat system and trade skills).
DRAWBACKS
1. Equipment can be re-used. Players don"t see this as a drawback, they, of course, see it as a massive win. It isn"t necessarily a win for the game, though.
1(a). 1 produces a need for much more inventory and bank space. Players will accumulate multiple sets of equipment.
2. It"s going to take a lot more work for a story driven MMO a la Copernicus, than pre-existing MMOs, if, as is likely, there is a quest and story system in place which is class dependent.
3. Itmayreduce role playing and immersion. But it can also enhance it. Take our little Taru friend - he"s great at magic, but far from the best Warrior, but many people love playing their little Taru Black Mage as a melee because of their attachment to him. And, of course, if he goes Paladin or Ninja he has a massive mana pool.
In summary, you question if the benefits are worth the cost. How much is a system worth, that will provide years of replayability, that will have a player go through painstakingly designed content 7 or 8 times instead of 1 or 2 times and still feel fresh and yet not increase the power of the character, the player or the class one iota ?
.
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
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Because giving a character a bonus due to him having some kind of mystical connection to another character based entirely on them being linked by credit card makes more sense. The "lolrealism" card breaks down pretty damn fast whenever someone tries to play it.
Having a character already built up doesn"t stop people from trying out new races in FFxi either. Not in the least bit.
Having a character already built up doesn"t stop people from trying out new races in FFxi either. Not in the least bit.
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
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This is balanced by players wanting so much more of it.Flight said:
I created a guild of alts just to have a guild bank to store all my stuff in. I have 13 characters across 3 accounts. I"m taking up a shitload of space as is. My Paladin alone has a tanking avoidance, tanking block, pvp ret, pvp holy, dps, ret set as well as some shadow, frost and nature resist pieces.
Suspension of disbelief already requires that I admit that the guy who just finished talking to the quest giver didn"t just kill the guy the quest giver is about to send me to kill.
Asking a little more that I accept that a quest giver will ask me to kill the same guy multiple times isn"t that hard. Last night I killed Ingvar the Plunderer and you know what? He apparently carries five axes with him. Who would have thought.
Depends. Had this argument before. Some people see themselves as "Zehn the holy spec"d Paladin"
Others see themselves as "Zehn the Paladin"
Me? I see myself as Zehn.
Everybody wins.