Gun control

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Loser Araysar

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Most interesting point about Araysar's poll to me is 40% of democrats report having a gun in the household.
I'm a dyed in the wool liberal as many will attest here but I don't consider gun control to be a liberal or conservative issue. I am firmly against gun control and I am very much pro-gun ownership and most liberals feel the same way I do. Close to half of us already own guns that we will admit to, and that's considering the fact that most of us live in urban areas to begin with. Most of us don't buy 15 guns and stockpile ammo. Well at least my friends don't - I have a small stockpile. Most of them own a Springfield .40 or a Sig Sauer with a 100 rounds in their safe that they take twice a year to the range to sharpen up their skills.

This is a losing proposition for Obama and the Democrats. I have a feeling he knows this already but he's probably rattling the cage a bit to placate the anti-gin idiots. if Obama really cared about gun control he wouldn't have loosened some of the regulations in his first term.
 

Aychamo BanBan

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Effective gun control programs have not been adopted in the U.S. due to lack of political support, but they have in Australia.

Thisstudydone in australia demonstrates that following the 1996 australian gun control laws, firearm homicide rate fell by 59%, and firearm suicide rate fell by 65%,without a parallel rise in non firearm homicides or suicides. It also shows that areas with faster and more aggressive buyback programs saw quicker declines in gun related deaths than those areas with slower buyback programs.

This provides strong circumstantial evidence for australia's gun law effectiveness.
I'm amazed that anybody bothers replying to you. You're completely ridiculous.
 

fanaskin

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Effective gun control programs have not been adopted in the U.S. due to lack of political support, but they have in Australia. =

This provides strong circumstantial evidence for australia's gun law effectiveness.
all you did was replace guns with something else, how does that change reality, if you commit suicide via hanging or blowing your head off what did you accomplish?
 

splorge

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all you did was replace guns with something else, how does that change reality, if you commit suicide via hanging or blowing your head off what did you accomplish?
I guess you have reading problems and skipped this part "without a parallel rise in non firearm homicides or suicides."
 

Big Derg_sl

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The fact that you cannot prove the future effect of legislation does not mean debates on said legislation are invalid. If you expect signed and sealed proof of the future effect of every piece of legislation that is brought into effect, then you are an idiot. Your statement can easily be flipped to "since you conceded that you can't prove keeping guns would make citizens safer, i dropped the debate since any rational arguments you had in favor of keeping guns just went to shit".:
You're the one suggesting change. I only have to support my position when you give credible opposition. You haven't done that. The onus is on you to provide evidence to support your conclusions before I waste my time attempting to disprove them. If you can't do that you're simply regurgitating words.


Yes, you did suggest it right here:
I never said there was a one to one substitution. The overall murder and assault rates could increase past pre gun ban numbers for all we know. A gun ban doesn't even guarantee that guns won't find their way into criminal hands through illegal means. Based on other countries that have banned firearms, it's safe to assume that murders and assaults with a knife would increase. You can dismiss these statistics if you want, but I'd like to see anything stating the contrary.
 

splorge

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You're the one suggesting change. I only have to support my position when you give credible opposition. You haven't done that. The onus is on you to provide evidence to support your conclusions before I waste my time attempting to disprove them. If you can't do that you're simply regurgitating words.





I never said there was a one to one substitution. The overall murder and assault rates could increase past pre gun ban numbers for all we know. A gun ban doesn't even guarantee that guns won't find their way into criminal hands through illegal means. Based on other countries that have banned firearms, it's safe to assume that murders and assaults with a knife would increase. You can dismiss these statistics if you want, but I'd like to see anything stating the contrary.
You are either being deliberately obtuse or are a complete moron.
 

fanaskin

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I guess you have reading problems
Have you read this 700 page doctorate level harvard study that completely disagrees with you?
it includes every major gun study conducted in the last 100 years and goes back as far as the middle ages
There is also the charts from 40+ studies in the 700 pages in there, they almost all universally disagree with your premise that guns = more death.

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_stud...terproductive/
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf


"Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases."


"There is no social benefit in decreasing the availability of guns if the result is only to increase the use of other means of suicide and murder, resulting in more or less the same amount of death. Elementary as this point is, proponents of the more guns equal more death mantra seem oblivious to it. One study asserts that Americans are more likely to be shot to death than people in the world's other wealthier nations. While this is literally true, it is irrelevant-except, perhaps to people terrified not of death per se but just death by gunshot. A fact that should be of greater concern-but which the study fails to mention-is that per capita murder overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent."

The "more guns equal more death" mantra seems plausible only when viewed through the rubric that murders mostly involve ordinary people who kill because they have access to a firearm when they get angry. If this were true, murder might well increase where people have ready access to firearms, but the available data provides no such correlation.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________


This should end this debate FOREVER

Macro-historical Evidence:
From the Middle Ages to the 20th Century The Middle Ages were a time of notoriously brutal and endemic warfare. They alsoexperienced rates of ordinary murder almost double the highest recorded U.S. murder rate. But Middle Age homicide "cannot be explained in terms of the availability of firearms, which had not yet been invented."The invention provides some test of the mantra.If it is true that more guns equal more murder and fewer guns equal less death, murder should have risen with the invention, increased efficiency, and greater availability of firearms across the population. Yet, using England as an example, murder rates seem to have fallen sharply as guns became progressively more efficient and widely owned during the five centuries after the invention of firearms.During much of this period, because the entire adult male population of England was deemed to constitute a militia, every military age male was required to possess arms for use in militia training and service.
 

Big Derg_sl

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I guess you have reading problems and skipped this part "without a parallel rise in non firearm homicides or suicides."
The problem is whether or not the study is accounting for similar decreases in homicide trends over the years as seen in other countries that hadn't enacted a ban. Homicides spiked for many countries in the 90's and then fell almost as dramatically from then forward. US for example.
 

fanaskin

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The murder rate from the age of sword to the age of gun dropped dramatically after the invention of the gun, what other evidence does anyone need?
 

Zombie Thorne_sl

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Completely getting rid of guns would drastically lower gun violence. You aren't going to completely get rid of guns in the US.

It really is as simple as that.
 

chaos

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Completely getting rid of guns would drastically lower gun violence. You aren't going to completely get rid of guns in the US.

It really is as simple as that.
Yeah, pretty much. I wouldn't say it is impossible, of course anything is possible. I can't imagine what would have to happen for their to be public support for taking existing guns from people. But I don't really think it is worth thinking about because it is so unlikely.
 

fanaskin

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Completely getting rid of guns would drastically lower gun violence.
The evidence shows that overall violence and murder would go up, so what was accomplished exactly? less people die by guns but more overall people die on average.
 

chaos

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Maybe, but whatever fantasy you'd have to concoct to get our society to a place where the people were even ready for that step might be something big enough to mitigate that.

It looked like the public gun debate was starting to die down, so luckily Feinstein is about to unveil some retarded gun ban legislation. Democrats are fucking retarded.
 

BrutulTM

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I can't believe you guys are still going back and forth on this. I have a question though for people who have been paying attention. Did they ever definitively say whether the last school shooter used that bushmaster or not? I heard it was left in the car, then I heard that it was used just to shoot out the window, then I heard that actually all of the victims were shot with it, and I'm still hearing all sorts of random bullshit in my facebook feed about it. Surely this isn't a hard piece of data to confirm, but with all the political nonsense surrounding the shooting I don't know what the hell happened.

EDIT: Never mind. I just read the Wikipedia page on it and it has a pretty detailed story.
 

Loser Araysar

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I can't believe you guys are still going back and forth on this. I have a question though for people who have been paying attention. Did they ever definitively say whether the last school shooter used that bushmaster or not? I heard it was left in the car, then I heard that it was used just to shoot out the window, then I heard that actually all of the victims were shot with it, and I'm still hearing all sorts of random bullshit in my facebook feed about it. Surely this isn't a hard piece of data to confirm, but with all the political nonsense surrounding the shooting I don't know what the hell happened.

EDIT: Never mind. I just read the Wikipedia page on it and it has a pretty detailed story.
The Bushmaster was used but only in the bayonet role, no shots were fired. Everyone was stabbed.