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Gun control
- Thread starter Saladus
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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I can't speak for the other links, but I own Lott's book 'More Guns, Less Crime', and he completely fails to show causation between concealed carry and reduced crime rates in general, so I doubt he adequately showed they reduce any specific crime rate either.
He did manage to inadvertently prove that increased CCW does not increase the crime rate however.
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I'm guessing by pricing them out. It's incredibly expensive to live there, so the poor cant afford it. Similar to NYC, where most of the poor who work most of the shorty jobs don't live on manhattan island proper.
Heylel
Trakanon Raider
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Everyone and their dog knows what people are referring to when someone says clip vs. magazine. I'm generally a big fan of precision language, but this is asinine gun snobbery. They're both the component of a gun where the ammunition is stored. This is like some fucking hipster saying "it's not a scarf, it's a keffiyah". 100% puffery.
Eomer
Trakanon Raider
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This is an incorrect statement.
You say you are a fan of precision language, lets say someone is trying to pass legislation controlling something that you are passionate about. Would you not get pissed off if someone contunually used the incorrect language when discussing said topic? Like i said, it does not bother me when it is used incorrectly by the average person, it bothers me when it isued by lawmakers.
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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eh, I think it is definitely gun snobbery for the most part, but I agree that it's perfectly reasonable to expect lawmakers to use precise terminology when proposing laws.
Here's why this is a problem. This is a 100% inaccurate statement, so any law that said clip but meant magazine would be a fucked up law.
Lithose might be overstating it, and I was probably going overboard when I said 90%, but it is a fact that the vast majority of homicides in America, particularly gun homicides, occur in a select grouping of large US cities with a high population density and poverty.
I wanted to take a moment to respond to this. Self Defense and Person Protection is the last thing on the list as to why i own guns. This holds true to a large number of americans as well. Over Christmas i was talking to a German national, she is dating my wifes brother and was in town for the Holidays. The subject of guns came up, the brother in law was asking me about a 1911 that i was working on and we started discussing guns and asked her if she ever thought of owning one. Her response is "no, i dont want to shoot anyone". This is the mentality of many people outside of the US. They just dont understand that we use guns for things other than killing each other. It is just a cultural difference.
By the end of her stay, she was shooting better than her boyfriend and having a blast doing it. It is fun and rewarding to educate non gun people.
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Eomer
Trakanon Raider
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I don't really dispute that. But if you're going to make a claim, back it up with some numbers. And better yet, make those numbers fair. If you pull out the numbers for homicides in Chicago etc., then you better pull out the homicides that happen in Paris' banlieues too, because otherwise what's the point of making the comparison?
Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
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I'm the same way as Thorne.
I live in one of the most crime free areas of Chicago. I walk at day and night around my neighborhood with zero fear and dont carry my sidearm. The reason I own weapons is because I consider them a bulwark against the tyranny of the government.
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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The clip vs magazine thing is a little silly, but the truth is that the people who make those mistakes would make egregious mistakes writing the laws they want.
Eomer
Trakanon Raider
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I don't find it silly at all. I just find that it shows the people who are wanting to ban any black painted rifle have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
Hoss
Make America's Team Great Again
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I think you need a signed and notarized letter of intent to kill you before you're allowed to escalate to a level of force that might injure the intruder.
But sometimes it's a grey area. A magazine is for feeding the ammo to be fired. A clip is for storing the ammo outside of the gun to be loaded quickly. When the magazine is in the gun, it's clearly a magazine. But if out of the gun, lets say in a pouch on your belt, available for quick reloads, it's more of a clip. There is no rule that says the clip cannot be inserted completely into the firearm (M1 Garand for instance, I don't think anyone would argue those were clips being used for reloads), and there's also no rule saying 1 device cannot perform both functions. So with most modern semi auto firearms, you have something that technically qualifies as both a clip and a magazine depending on where it currently is.
Are those real ads? Is HCI actually pro-rape now? They're one step away from saying, "Just lay back and enjoy it"Yeah, your post has changed my views, I'm converted. lol
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
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I haven't done the numbers since 2005 when I wrote a report on it, I have a slow work day, so I'll do them again. Will need to use Wiki though.
Essentially this list.Here..Which shows homicide per capita. I believe I was able to reduce below France's homicide per capita rate by stripping 13 U.S. cities out--now that sounds like a lot, but we're talking a total population below 12 million people (If I remember correctly). They are just incredibly dense violence areas.
Anyway, I'll edit this post later when I show reductions. But just to illustrate, Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, Philadelphia, New Orleans--in 2010, this is 6 million in population with a total of 1498 homicides, while France is 60 million with 1008 (2004, first number I pulled up). I know this itself is an unfair since France would still have it's worst cities BUT in the original I showed that even after this population loss, the U.S. maintained an urban population far higher than that of France (I believe the numbers were 210 million AFTER deductions, vs 50 million no deductions. SO before the French chime in, I know France has high population density overall, but they do not have a higher rate of urbanization--which requires over a certain amount of people per square mile according to the WB) I know that's not enough for causation or any scientific evidence, but it was fine for a correlative hypothesis in an undergrad paper.
Anyway, the fact is the U.S. simply has a far higher rate of urban density mixed with poverty, and this creates these hubs of hyper violence. (I wish I could find my original paper--it was actually about drug laws and violence.) Anyway, I'll work out and put up the full list.
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
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Because even when you reduce these city populations, the U.S. still has more people living in urban areas? The U.S. has one of the highest urban populations in the world. Even if we lost Detroit, Baltimore and New Orleans, and all the massive, problem impoverished cities in the U.S.--we'd still have more people in urban centers than France. And yet our violence would be lower. Which shows a correlation to homicides being a product of poverty AND population, not just one or the other.
Is that causation? No. But it should lead anyone to the deeper question that maybe there are some major differences between the U.S. and Europe and focusing on JUST guns is not only bad, it's dangerous if your goal is to really save lives. If I can cut out enough murders a year by quarantining these populations, while still leaving a higher overall population of people in cities than any European country--that should lead people to believe the problem is something intrinsic there, rather than with guns. In my paper, my hypothesis was drug profits combined with poverty, combined with urban density and a lack of access to social aid. It's kind of a perfect storm of factors that just does NOT exist in France, or any other Western European country.
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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That argument would have more weight if the gun laws weren't full of dumb shit.