Gun control

Big Derg_sl said:

I don't really buy that argument mainly from personal experience. When I carry or others in my department carry, we're not thinking about our roles as office Rambo. It's natural to forget you even have it while working.

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Right but the entire point of this is that teachers would act as tacit law enforcement. The concept goes beyond simple target practice and into the realities of what would have to happen to deal with the situation. That means using their weapons in an actual mass shooting situation, but using it intelligently, actively working to pick out the correct suspect and protect the innocent children, which at the end of the day is their charge, protect the kids. The idea is mind-bottling to me. I'm sure you have plenty of ex-Marine teachers who are up to the task but the discussion seems to go along the lines that if you spend enough time at the range you're just as prepared to deal with all of this as a cop, and I just find that ludicrous.

Soysauceonrice_sl said:

1) I have tried googling it. I failed
2) No one has to invest that time to do the research because presumably someone already has done that research because if you haven't paid attention, that claim is being thrown around quite often. I just want the source. ":Evidence" without a source isn't evidence.

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Ohio is another state that allows teachers to carry guns if licensed, would it change your opinion one bit if I provide more states.

Research and educate yourself. There is no point in me doing it for you especially if you aren't willing to accept any evidence that goes against your emotional instincts.

chaos_sl said:

How? From your extensive experience identifying suspects? From the cool head you manage to keep while being fucking shot at? Your ability to maneuver and deal with a crowd of panicking victims? Much like Donnie, you'd be totally out of your element as a teacher.

Knowing the troublemakers? Because "known troublemakers" is usually a description used of these school shootings?

The whole thing sounds like a fantasy to me from people who spent too much time playing CS or something.

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If you are being shot at, then I'm sure it would be easy to identify the suspect. I'm not sure what you are going on about.

I was mentioning that it would be easier for a teacher to recognize who is a normal occupant of a school than a police officer or security guard because teachers have much more interaction with the student body than a police officer or security guard.

chaos_sl said:

Right but the entire point of this is that teachers would act as tacit law enforcement. The concept goes beyond simple target practice and into the realities of what would have to happen to deal with the situation. That means using their weapons in an actual mass shooting situation, but using it intelligently, actively working to pick out the correct suspect and protect the innocent children, which at the end of the day is their charge, protect the kids. The idea is mind-bottling to me. I'm sure you have plenty of ex-Marine teachers who are up to the task but the discussion seems to go along the lines that if you spend enough time at the range you're just as prepared to deal with all of this as a cop, and I just find that ludicrous.

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It's not acting as tacit law enforcement. It's acting as defense of the classroom.

Nobody is suggesting teachers go rambo / counter strike throughout a school. They are suggesting they should be allowed to defend themselves or their classroom if a madman breaks in and starts methodically picking off students.

Flunklesnarkin_sl said:

Ohio is another state that allows teachers to carry guns if licensed, would it change your opinion one bit if I provide more states.

Research and educate yourself. There is no point in me doing it for you especially if you aren't willing to accept any evidence that goes against your emotionally instincts.

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You need to stop beating this straw man. I never said i would reject evidence. But you people keep yelling THIRTEEN STATES !!! without actually explaining what this means. What thirteen states ? What restrictions in these thirteen states that DO allow concealed carry, if any ? Don't fucking bitch at me telling me to do the research when YOU are the one that is making the claim in the first place.

Flunklesnarkin_sl said:

Well, when you put it that way, why should we even bother doing anything as a result of recent shootings? It is rare after all.

I'm sure there are much better things to devote our time to, like child choking hazards or child drownings.

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And this is the reality. I hate to say it, but shit happens. Bad shit happens. No matter how prepared and cautious you are, something bad may happen to you. The more regulations and controls we put in place does nothing but put a strain on everybody. Trying to prevent things like this that are so exceedingly rare in the first place just doesn't make sense.

Soysauceonrice_sl said:

You need to stop beating this straw man. I never said i would reject evidence. But you people keep yelling THIRTEEN STATES !!! without actually explaining what this means. What thirteen states ? What restrictions in these thirteen states that DO allow concealed carry, if any ? Don't fucking bitch at me telling me to do the research when YOU are the one that is making the claim in the first place.

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What are you suggesting? You want to compare the gun laws of these 13 states and come up with some sort of comprehensive nationwide gun policy? You want to see what nuances and differences there are and determine the best path to allow guns in schools?

I don't think that is a good idea myself to have a nationwide school gun policy. I think it should be a state matter.

Much like I think the nationwide Gun Free School Act is a bad idea even with the exemptions it allows.

Thorne_sl said:

And this is the reality. I hate to say it, but shit happens. Bad shit happens. No matter how prepared and cautious you are, something bad may happen to you. The more regulations and controls we put in place does nothing but put a strain on everybody. Trying to prevent things like this that are so exceedingly rare in the first place just doesn't make sense.

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I know right, the same people who argue teachers shouldn't be allowed to carry guns because of how rare the incidents are, argue that assault weapons need to be banned to prevent school gun violence.

Mind boggling.

Flunklesnarkin_sl said:

If you are being shot at, then I'm sure it would be easy to identify the suspect. I'm not sure what you are going on about.

I was mentioning that it would be easier for a teacher to recognize who is a normal occupant of a school than a police officer or security guard because teachers have much more interaction with the student body than a police officer or security guard.




It's not acting as tacit law enforcement. It's acting as defense of the classroom.

Nobody is suggesting teachers go rambo / counter strike throughout a school. They are suggesting they should be allowed to defend themselves or their classroom if a madman breaks in and starts methodically picking off students.

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You think it would be easy to identify a shooter in a mass shooting incident? How the fuck do you figure that? It's that Aurora shit all over again...

And it absolutely is enabling them to act as tacit law enforcement. These cherry picked scenarios are bullshit and not reflective of the reality, the history we have to look at. If you allow teachers or whoever to concealed carry in schools for the purpose of defense you are obligating those who do to an entire field of expertise that they do not have.

Thorne_sl said:

And this is the reality. I hate to say it, but shit happens. Bad shit happens. No matter how prepared and cautious you are, something bad may happen to you. The more regulations and controls we put in place does nothing but put a strain on everybody. Trying to prevent things like this that are so exceedingly rare in the first place just doesn't make sense.

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Well, yes and no. Things like mass shootings are not always preventable but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't look at the situation from all angles to ensure that we have done everything reasonable as a society to prevent it. Introspection is a good thing.

Flunklesnarkin_sl said:

What are you suggesting? You want to compare the gun laws of these 13 states and come up with some sort of comprehensive nationwide gun policy? You want to see what nuances and differences there are and determine the best path to allow guns in schools?

I don't think that is a good idea myself to have a nationwide school gun policy. I think it should be a state matter.

Much like I think the nationwide Gun Free School Act is a bad idea even with the exemptions it allows.




I know right, the same people who argue teachers shouldn't be allowed to carry guns because of how rare the incidents are, argue that assault weapons need to be banned to prevent school gun violence.

Mind boggling.

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All I wanted is the fucking source. I have no conclusions, because I don't know what the information says. I have no agenda, and as often as people keep yelling 13 states, I had a hell of a time trying to google what exactly the 13 states are and to what extent these states allow cc in schools. I just wanted the source. How exactly did this whole 13 states thing start ?

I googled it quickly and wasn't able to find a comprehensive source on 13 states allowing concealed carry in schools, either. So you;re not alone there.

Big Derg_sl said:

I found this on my first search. Hopefully that helps you. Happy hunting.http://m.ncsl.org/issues-research/ed...-overview.aspx

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For example, this link has some information, but it is woefully incomplete. The only thing i can get from this is that utah is the only state that prevents the banning of guns for those who have a concealed carry license. But even this only talks about what is allowed in colleges and universities and says nothing about concealed carry forteachersin places like elementary schools and high schools. The information available seems extremely spotty.

I want to explain something that I don't think a lot of people that don't have experience with firearms understand. I am going to make some generalizations, so please don't point out the outliers to what I say. We all know there are idiots everywhere. But thankfully they are a small minority.

To any well adjusted CHL holder, carrying a gun does not alter their day to day thoughts or actions in any way. Ppl that carry a gun for self defense are not fantasizing all day about the chance to use it. A gun (when used for self defense) is a tool. A tool that I hope to hell I never have to use. It is no different than a flashlight, a pocket knife or a house key. When you strap it on, you aren't suddenly flooded with some sort of blood rage that people seem to talk about. How many times has it been said even in this thread, "what if so so and so flips their shit, gets mad and kills everyone". How many normal people flip out and kill people? I've been plenty mad at plenty of people. I've never wanted to kill them. Having a gun doesn't change this fact.

Anyway, it's late and I'm rambling. I'm just tired of this perception that just because someone has a gun it is going to make every situation potentially life threatening. It just doesn't. It's a tool for a specific job. How ,any people carry pocket knives? It's a perfectly lethal weapon too, but people just don't flip out and stab people all the time. Normal people don't want to kill each other. Ppl dont understand just how many ppl carry these days, I think I heard on the radio the other day almost 1 in 5 people have a CHL. That's a lot of armed ppl that aren't randomly flipping out and killing each other.

EDIT 1 in 5 people in Oklahoma

Tuco_sl said:

Yeah the 'don't give teachers the burden of having the choice to concealed carry' argument holds no water. Beef Supreme is grasping for straws here.

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Right. Your trolling is tired.

Let's give classroom teachers the right to carry with CCW and rigorous training. Better yet, create a new CHL for teachers that is specifically for the role. Let's mandate that they keep a monthly round count and take continuous training on their new dual role. Let's keep pretending that there is overwhelming interest by teachers and the teachers' union and the program is successful. That all goes out the window when the first teacher kills his/her own student.

What happens when a teacher finally shoots a student in the classroom? Unless that teacher is Steve Rodgers, their life is over. The media will crush that person into oblivion. They would be dissected and marginalized into a soundbite. At the very least, they won't be teacher anymore (how could they?), the students would have to be counseled, etc. But wait, what if our would-be student terrorist pulls out an airsoft gun and the teacher responds with his .357? The school district would be liable both criminally and civilly. And we all know school districts are flush with cash. Putting guns INSIDE the fucking classroom is needless and dangerous. It sets dangerous precedents.

This conversation about the validity of having guns in the classroom is insane. At most, at the very limit of what we should be doing, I can accept that there is a less-than-lethal option, but even that is just a gateway drug to guns. Guns in the classroom is not the answer, it should never be. The learning environment is poisoned when the possibility that the instructor is carrying lethal force. There's no trust.

Even then, we are talking about minors. Children, teenagers, youth. Why in Zeus' butthole are we advocating lethal force in the classroom?

If anything, we need to be talking about hiring more teachers and developing a competing curriculum, the US is woefully behind the first world in almost every category. That's where the conversation should be.

Thorne_sl said:

I want to explain something that I don't think a lot of people that don't have experience with firearms understand. I am going to make some generalizations, so please don't point out the outliers to what I say. We all know there are idiots everywhere. But thankfully they are a small minority.

To any well adjusted CHL holder, carrying a gun does not alter their day to day thoughts or actions in any way. Ppl that carry a gun for self defense are not fantasizing all day about the chance to use it. A gun (when used for self defense) is a tool. A tool that I hope to hell I never have to use. It is no different than a flashlight, a pocket knife or a house key. When you strap it on, you aren't suddenly flooded with some sort of blood rage that people seem to talk about. How many times has it been said even in this thread, "what if so so and so flips their shit, gets mad and kills everyone". How many normal people flip out and kill people? I've been plenty mad at plenty of people. I've never wanted to kill them. Having a gun doesn't change this fact.

Anyway, it's late and I'm rambling. I'm just tired of this perception that just because someone has a gun it is going to make every situation potentially life threatening. It just doesn't. It's a tool for a specific job. How ,any people carry pocket knives? It's a perfectly lethal weapon too, but people just don't flip out and stab people all the time. Normal people don't want to kill each other. Ppl dont understand just how many ppl carry these days, I think I heard on the radio the other day almost 1 in 5 people have a CHL. That's a lot of armed ppl that aren't randomly flipping out and killing each other.

EDIT 1 in 5 people in Oklahoma

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I do think it is different than a knife or some other tool and conveys a more broad sense of power to the wielder. Look at this very thread, how many times has someone used the argument "well if X had a gun they may have been able to stop Y" even in situations as fucked as the Aurora shooting. Introduce a gun and suddenly everyone is a theoretical John Mcclain. You'd never hear anyone say "if I had a pocket knife I would have taken down the drugged and armored suspect in a smoke filled dark room filled with chaos and panic LIKE A BOSS" but you have people making that kind of argument about concealed weapons. It is those jackasses who worry me when I think of all the people walking around with concealed weapons, not the responsible and realistic people you are talking about.

chaos_sl said:

I do think it is different than a knife or some other tool and conveys a more broad sense of power to the wielder. Look at this very thread, how many times has someone used the argument "well if X had a gun they may have been able to stop Y" even in situations as fucked as the Aurora shooting. Introduce a gun and suddenly everyone is a theoretical John Mcclain. You'd never hear anyone say "if I had a pocket knife I would have taken down the drugged and armored suspect in a smoke filled dark room filled with chaos and panic LIKE A BOSS" but you have people making that kind of argument about concealed weapons. It is those jackasses who worry me when I think of all the people walking around with concealed weapons, not the responsible and realistic people you are talking about.

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Yes, now add that to a classroom.

chaos_sl said:

I do think it is different than a knife or some other tool and conveys a more broad sense of power to the wielder. Look at this very thread, how many times has someone used the argument "well if X had a gun they may have been able to stop Y" even in situations as fucked as the Aurora shooting. Introduce a gun and suddenly everyone is a theoretical John Mcclain. You'd never hear anyone say "if I had a pocket knife I would have taken down the drugged and armored suspect in a smoke filled dark room filled with chaos and panic LIKE A BOSS" but you have people making that kind of argument about concealed weapons. It is those jackasses who worry me when I think of all the people walking around with concealed weapons, not the responsible and realistic people you are talking about.

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This is exactly the point I am making. You have this perception that just by having a gun it turns everyone into your theoretical Johm McClain. Yes, you get people on these boards Monday morning QBing and being sensational about it. Yes these people are idiots. The overwhelming majority of people aren't. I doubt there is anything else I can say to change your mind, but responsible gun owners arent just waiting and hoping for a chance to play hero and having a gun does not convey to them the broader sense of power you mention.

Example: Guy I compete with was robbed at knife point a few years ago, he was carrying and is a very skilled shooter. He very easily could have killed his assailant. When I asked him why he didn't, his response was "I never felt threatened, he didn't want to stab me and the 300 bucks in my wallet wasn't worth killing some poor bastard over". That was it.

Thorne_sl said:

Example: Guy I compete with was robbed at knife point a few years ago, he was carrying and is a very skilled shooter. He very easily could have killed his assailant. When I asked him why he didn't, his response was "I never felt threatened, he didn't want to stab me and the 300 bucks in my wallet wasn't worth killing some poor bastard over". That was it.

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Just curious but, why didn't he just draw the gun ? The gun isn't there just to kill someone; if the other guy has a knife and you have the gun, I'd imagine just drawing the gun would have made the guy back off, saving your friend 300 bucks without needing to kill anyone.

And I've done some research if anyone cares.

This article:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...oting/1793773/

And this article:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Educati...page-storyList

suggests that 43 states + dc have an absolute ban on bringing guns into k-12 schools. Utah, Hawaii, New Hampshire, and Oregon allow cc license holders to carry without exception. Delaware and Ohio does not prohibit it but leaves it up to individual school districts. And then there is that one podunk county in Texas that allows teachers with cc license to carry.

Edit: Some further research has unveiled some additional information. For example, while Oregon DOES allow non-school employees with a CHL to carry guns into the school without exception, the schools themselves may, and have, instituted policies that bar school teachers from bringing the gun onto school premises. So even in a state that allows private citizen CHL holders to bring guns onto school campuses, the same cannot be said for armed teachers. It seems like Utah is the only state in the nation where a teacher with a CHL cannot be prevented from carrying a gun if that teacher so chooses.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs...NEWS/212220312

I bring all this up to place an emphasis on having actual concrete information, as opposed to spouting generalities such as THIRTEEN STATES !

Never draw your gun unless you plan to use it. Simple as that.

If he upholstered, they guy have fled or took a stab at him forcing him to shoot.

Thorne_sl said:

This is exactly the point I am making. You have this perception that just by having a gun it turns everyone into your theoretical Johm McClain. Yes, you get people on these boards Monday morning QBing and being sensational about it. Yes these people are idiots. The overwhelming majority of people aren't. I doubt there is anything else I can say to change your mind, but responsible gun owners arent just waiting and hoping for a chance to play hero and having a gun does not convey to them the broader sense of power you mention.

Example: Guy I compete with was robbed at knife point a few years ago, he was carrying and is a very skilled shooter. He very easily could have killed his assailant. When I asked him why he didn't, his response was "I never felt threatened, he didn't want to stab me and the 300 bucks in my wallet wasn't worth killing some poor bastard over". That was it.

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If you reread my post, I actually agree with what you said. When I say "everyone" I am overblowing it, but I realize that most responsible owners probably do understand their limitations. I think the only place we disagree is how much of that almost 20% that you cite is "responsible". Of course that is not a knowable fact, it is subjective. I know that talking to people I am shocked at how many seem to think that they would be 100% effective if dropped into that kind of situation right now.