Chanur
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Health Care Thread
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Vaclav
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Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (2010; 111th Congress H.R. 3590) - GovTrack.us
Just right off the bat with your quote is that:
a) I wasn't referring exclusively to the Senate
b) There were 3 Republican signatures on bringing it forward, not just one.
c) I was only referencing the "major" passage votes - additionally one of those "independents" you referenced was basically Republican
Learn to use THOMAS, Christ.
What wasnt working about it. Illegals get free hc and people who run the system get free healthcare.... Now they get free hc and people who dont need any healthcare are paying an extra monthly bill and a penalty that increases in 3 years to 700$ a year for not being sick....
Sebudai
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Americans pay a shitload more for healthcare than the citizens of other countries and yet still have worse health outcomes.
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Vaclav
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Technically before ANYONE who wanted free healthcare got free healthcare.
Go to the hospital, don't show insurance and claim you're unable to pay when the bill comes - got written off and wasn't even legally allowed to be thrown on a credit report (although there were some states where there was back door methods to do so...).
Hell, my sister was a cheap something-something and even with her hubby earning $80k a year decided she didn't want to pay for her ovarian thing about a decade ago doing just that, even though she was earning enough after everything to go to Disney twice in the same year she was claiming that it was "too hard to afford the hospitalization costs" to get them written off. [And she should have had a similar "pre-inheritance" like I did at that point which could've paid it in full ten times over unless I had special consideration to my grandparents which is unlikely... Note: That was down from her norm of four one week Disney trips, usually one cruise to just two weeks across two stays - she was barely scraping by!]
EVERYONE goes to the hospital when they're in dire need - and on average that's once every SEVEN YEARS per capita - with an average defaulted bill per person of over $2k. Sure, there might be a handful that are uninsured and legitimately went 20-30 years without running to the hospital, but for every one of them there's another that's going twice a year and not paying their bill as well.
[And for defaulting it supposedly was around 80% of uninsured hospital patients didn't...]
PS - "Illegals" got free HC under the same thing, and made up less than 10% of the free hospital care in the states that track it (and have higher than the national average of illegal population) like Arizona - from what the reports on the subject said they're more often getting free HC from charitable clinics - many of which are set up by immigrants that became successful - than they are from abusing the hospital triage requirements.
Vaclav
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Likely true, especially in Arizona where sedated illegals have been deported while under sedation. But regardless of "why" the figures show that they're a drop in the bucket to the getting free healthcare equation unless you start counting clinics which aren't really tracked to my knowledge.
So we need more government to step in and mandate we do things differently. I do believe the free market would solve that problem. Instead we are going to be supervised by a bunch pf politians in suits. Greeeeeat idea!
And to touch on the illegal immigrant thing.... For emergency room situations it is now a law they have to have a set plan and procedure BEFORE showing proof of insurance. Even though if doctors know ahead of time they can follow a generally cheaper route for someone who is paying out of pocket. If you think that people were turned away because of no insurance in the first place you have less brain cells than i orignally thought. Also 10% for illegal immigrant healthcare? I call bullshit. And you cant fucking mandate a healthcare insurance policy or even get money out of them because they are undocumented illegals. Still all the same. If people would pay their damn medical bills or have a different plan on how to do so then medical care wouldnt cost sp much. Want to know why it's a 250 bill to just get seen by a doctor in an er (even when you have insurance) thats because you are paying for other irresponsible americans who want a free ride. Or a illegal immigrant who tells them the wrong address or states he forgot his id and insurance and doesn't pay a dime...
Im not saying i have a great plan. But fucking healthy americans into paying for the sick will never work. We mandate car insurance but how many fuckers are driving without it.... And it's dirt cheap
Flame on liberals.
Vaclav
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US illegal population is 11.7m, the US population is 313.9m - 10% does mean per capita they're overrepresented for how many there are, three times as often as a citizen - but that's still a drop in the overall bucket.
And I never said a word about people being turned away because of no insurance before, it's actually illegal under triage standards unless a patient is considered healthy to street to consider insurance at all before treatment in a hospital setting. And if you hate the idea of illegals getting healthcare, one big way to actually get away from the "allow anyone without insurance to use an ER" which creates this entire issue is to make sure every citizen is legally required to have insurance.
For anyone conscious or unconscious with family prove who they are with ID or SSN + background questions from your tax record or else you don't get treated is only an option if every citizen is insured.
PS - On car insurance being mandated - last I checked it's only mandated in 43 states not nationwide, and the carry rate for insurance is over 90%. Additionally the max payout for a car accident is under $100k for cheap insurance in my state, and I'd imagine Maryland's minimums are higher than most knowing how litigious this state is. Max payout for a health insurance policy is fundamentally infinite. So assuming they should be anywhere on the same order to each other is absolute folly. [Not to mention your car insurance policy doesn't cover maintenance, whereas health insurance does - I personally would love to see health insurance spun off into something for catastrophic coverage with mandates tied to it, but "maintenance healthcare" without it (although with a premium reduction for the catastrophic if you have it, since people that do health maintenance have lesser overall costs)]
PSS - ER cash costs and insured (pre-insurance) costs haven't changed substantially in thirty years, they're actually legally precluded from rolling defaulted costs onto the patient in the ER for fundamentals - its possible some insurance policies changed their %, mine never did pre-Medicare in the 20 years I used BC/BS (Federal under my parents, and Upstate NY Excellus on my own for the other 15 - don't recall insurance costs before my teens though) and Medicare never will obviously. Almost all defaulted costs actually get reimbursed by the Fed - so it's not paid for directly by other users of the hospital (part of why you'll note all hospitals in a region tend to charge near identically outside of special procedures) - it's just paid for by taxpayers in general by all of us.
And I never said a word about people being turned away because of no insurance before, it's actually illegal under triage standards unless a patient is considered healthy to street to consider insurance at all before treatment in a hospital setting. And if you hate the idea of illegals getting healthcare, one big way to actually get away from the "allow anyone without insurance to use an ER" which creates this entire issue is to make sure every citizen is legally required to have insurance.
For anyone conscious or unconscious with family prove who they are with ID or SSN + background questions from your tax record or else you don't get treated is only an option if every citizen is insured.
PS - On car insurance being mandated - last I checked it's only mandated in 43 states not nationwide, and the carry rate for insurance is over 90%. Additionally the max payout for a car accident is under $100k for cheap insurance in my state, and I'd imagine Maryland's minimums are higher than most knowing how litigious this state is. Max payout for a health insurance policy is fundamentally infinite. So assuming they should be anywhere on the same order to each other is absolute folly. [Not to mention your car insurance policy doesn't cover maintenance, whereas health insurance does - I personally would love to see health insurance spun off into something for catastrophic coverage with mandates tied to it, but "maintenance healthcare" without it (although with a premium reduction for the catastrophic if you have it, since people that do health maintenance have lesser overall costs)]
PSS - ER cash costs and insured (pre-insurance) costs haven't changed substantially in thirty years, they're actually legally precluded from rolling defaulted costs onto the patient in the ER for fundamentals - its possible some insurance policies changed their %, mine never did pre-Medicare in the 20 years I used BC/BS (Federal under my parents, and Upstate NY Excellus on my own for the other 15 - don't recall insurance costs before my teens though) and Medicare never will obviously. Almost all defaulted costs actually get reimbursed by the Fed - so it's not paid for directly by other users of the hospital (part of why you'll note all hospitals in a region tend to charge near identically outside of special procedures) - it's just paid for by taxpayers in general by all of us.
Sebudai
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In the particular case of healthcare, yes. Healthcare is a public good, and is one of the primary reasons to even have a government. Other western countries are providing their citizens with better healthcare for less money, and they are not doing it with "less government."
Vaclav
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"Less government" is a farcical term anyhow - everyone wants government there for them for a list of a select few items that varies person to person - no one but a few idiots (that live on compounds generally) want no government whatsoever. Now we all have some items we'd rather not have them bother with because it intrudes on them or costs them money - but at the end of the day we all want stuff that the government provides even if only tangentially, like fire departments. [I'm not stupid enough to let my house catch on fire outside of a freak accident like lightning - but was damn glad they exist when the neighbor to my first home [a townhome] caught fire from negligence - no government the entire row would've been gone since most were brokeasses that wouldn't pay for it voluntarily (and I was out of town at the time, plus a brokeass half the time since I didn't know how to budget yet nor had any inheritance yet)]
Actually other statistics say there are 30 million illegal immigrants in the country. Are you providing US Census documents? because i'm sure that every illegal immigrant fills out that census form. Also with 30 million of them think about how many children per household. Lets say on average 4 kids per II Household. So that's 40 million we are providing healthcare for as well. I can't say we can't take care of children but we are decreasing our veterans HC and pensions and increasing government aide to those who are here illegally.
People are being treated before insurance because of a newly enforced Obama bill which was created because some people thought they weren't getting proper treatment because of them (not paying their bill, or no insurance at registration). Thanks big O.
The biggest picture here is patient safety. With all the new legislation that has occurred from the ACA hospitals are doing BIG cuts. Big cuts to patient safety. These hospitals are owned by big wigs who "will not let their company go bankrupt" over some ACA bill that's for sure.
Instead they are cutting staffing to hospitals which in turn decreases patient safety.
http://www.care2.com/causes/what-do-...g-toilets.html
Also the fact that most hospitals are making mid level providers the sole providers in most care now because doctors jobs are being cut.
So yeah. On top of the 20 patient truckload to most nurses lets make them clean our bacteria/virus infected rooms as well. Because i'm sure they have enough time in their 12 hour shift for that!
They will make cuts, and patient safety will decline.
The only possible good thing that the ACA does is help preventative care. Which is a toss up. This will not improve rates for people who have unhealthy lifestyles to begin with. It's been known for years smoking is bad for your health- Do people give a shit? Try the root of the problem- The cigarette companies but i'm sure they have paid off way too many politicians for any real rules to be made for them.
Why should a 30 year old part time worker/student pay 200$ for healthcare he doesn't need if he is a healthy individual if his part time work does not provide him medical insurance? Most people who are hardworking Americans cannot pay another 200$ bill a month- let alone pay a penalty if they do not have insurance for healthcare they do not use. The only good thing about this is the catastrophic element. Not in the primary care region.
Also to hit on the "other countries" providing better care portion of the argument
India has cheap medical procedures with very great success- Yet they have a free market and produce MD's at a faster rate that USA. Only having to go to school for around 4 years puts more competition in the healthcare industry. Where the average American Medical student will go to school for 10+ years and have half a million dollars in debt after he/she graduates. And adding all the doctor cuts i'm sure the medical schools will produce fewer students who would be great doctors.
The national healthcare wait times are hideous and quality of care is considered poor in most places other than America/India.
The only one I've ever heard of working in favor for citizens is Thailand.
But I've talked too long to you peasants to give a damn- The only thing you need to know is that there is no possible way someone who "doesn't need medical coverage" can take on another 200 dollar bill a month (that's if it stays at around 200.00) to pay for everyone's problems unless we figure out the root of the cost of healthcare/pharmaceutical companies to begin with.
If the ACA is so great why won't politicians sign up for it? Because most of the time it's going directly into their pockets to begin with.
I'm done and have made every statement I want to make. I will remain silent as I watch this fire get bigger and bigger. America's debt climb. The last thing I will say...(yes it might be a bit long)
Healthcare should be a privilege. And sometimes a charity for certain circumstances beyond our control but we shouldn't be entitled to healthcare/ or have a right to healthcare
Right to our freedom/free will- Yes
Right to our life- Yes
Right to our defense/security- Yes
That's what I mean by less government- Look at our US government and name one fucking "plan" or changes to our constitution that has been successful in the past 20 years.
They only care about votes so they can pad their pockets even more- They play you like a fucking flute. And you believe all the bullshit that comes outta their mouth willing to suck it down with a straw because every single America is asleep and cares more about their Facebook drama over some statement that Duck Dynasty star said in some dumb ass magazine. While they are passing bills under your nose to help only THEMSELVES.
The middle class-upper class (im not talking about the 1% who get away not paying taxes to begin with)
Shouldn't have more taxes/regulations piled on them- We are struggling as a nation already just coming out of a recession.
This will only cripple the middle-class. Fiscally this plan is a failure. Until our government rewards people for doing the "Right" things instead of punishing them. And giving rewards for people who do the "Wrong" things this country will be going in the shitter pretty quick.
Although It doesn't really affect me, or my wifes profession/and or life my damn health insurance (which is company provided) did go up 20$ every 2 weeks. Which sorta pisses me off.
Flame on libtards-
Healthcare should be a privilege. And sometimes a charity for certain circumstances beyond our control but we shouldn't be entitled to healthcare/ or have a right to healthcare
Right to our freedom/free will- Yes
Right to our life- Yes
Right to our defense/security- Yes
That's what I mean by less government- Look at our US government and name one fucking "plan" or changes to our constitution that has been successful in the past 20 years.
They only care about votes so they can pad their pockets even more- They play you like a fucking flute. And you believe all the bullshit that comes outta their mouth willing to suck it down with a straw because every single America is asleep and cares more about their Facebook drama over some statement that Duck Dynasty star said in some dumb ass magazine. While they are passing bills under your nose to help only THEMSELVES.
The middle class-upper class (im not talking about the 1% who get away not paying taxes to begin with)
Shouldn't have more taxes/regulations piled on them- We are struggling as a nation already just coming out of a recession.
This will only cripple the middle-class. Fiscally this plan is a failure. Until our government rewards people for doing the "Right" things instead of punishing them. And giving rewards for people who do the "Wrong" things this country will be going in the shitter pretty quick.
Although It doesn't really affect me, or my wifes profession/and or life my damn health insurance (which is company provided) did go up 20$ every 2 weeks. Which sorta pisses me off.
Flame on libtards-
fanaskin
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they aren't however leading in specialized medical knowledge or invention which based on that scientific progress lowers the overall human suffering in the world.
Sebudai
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They are in some areas, but in general I agree with you. However, I argue that the two are not mutually exclusive. Why can't we do both? Why would a single-payer system necessarily hinder "specialized medical knowledge or invention"? Single-payer systems are just straight-up more efficient. Why would a single-payer system preclude innovation or a market for more expensive, experimental healthcare? We can have our cake and eat it too.
Siddar
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Single payer has no incentive to improve or change.
Healthcare no matter how its provided is very expensive and in the long term has a 100% failure rate. Why would'nt your healthcare provider let you die a bit sooner if it saves money?
Vaclav
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Depends on the category - there's plenty of categories where those "dirty Euros" are kicking our asses in medical technology and procedure research.
Knee replacements in the UK for example are the cream of the crop of the world currently.
Heart, liver and cancer tend to be the only ones we excel in almost completely across the board. Neurologic is decent here, but Swedes are doing better than us in research etc. etc.
Vaclav
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Those "other statistics" are estimates based on absolutely nothing, the 11m figure was figured out based on how many were found in a given area by INS - and the number is additionally bolstered a bit from what the numbers were when Reagan gave amnesty back during his term, back then it was 2.2% of the US population - now those estimates would land in the 3-4% range now, which is about appropriate. 30 mil illegals would literally be 1 in 10 people on the street being an illegal, which is ludicrous even places like Arizona that are supposedly "overrun with illegals" have their politicians quoting around 1 in 20. (5%)
Just because people are hispanic doesn't make them illegal - I've personally known probably close to a hundred hispanics of various sorts over the years between hiring and a few that are in the family (cousin in law married a Dominican immigrant) - I've known a total of ONE illegal. In fact, based on your 30m figure all but 5m hispanics in the US would be illegal.... absolutely ludicrous. There's only 35m hispanics in the country total.
Negative. People have ALWAYS BEEN TREATED THAT WAY in US hospitals since the AMA has existed under AMA rules, it was one of the founding rules of the AMA - and soon after the Federal government reinforced it formally. Big fucking hint, smart guy - what do you think the hospital does when they pull someone out of a wreck that's been burning? Say "Oh well, his wallet burned up and he can't prove who he is - fuck him - besides he might be an illegal" like your wet dream would be?
Citation for this? Hospitals around me are all hiring more now than they were before - and we've got a shitload of hospitals in Maryland. LPN I see over 400 positions available just in my ZIP code alone, RN just shy of 200, NP about 80. Just in ONE zip code.
Did you even read this article past the title? Or even past the quote that Drudge had before it (or where ever you got it without reading it obviously) - they stated in the article this policy happened as a result of the recession and that this hospital has been known to do scummy shit before - not ONE assertion or relation in the article to the ACA.
a) Doctor jobs aren't being cut, period. Right now there's a shortage because of TOO MANY RETIRING VERSUS THOSE THAT THE AMA ALLOWS TO GRADUATE EACH YEAR. The entire health care industry has been suffering from that issue, nursing has been the same way for over a decade now where every place is getting tighter on nurses because it's not a popular field to educate in anymore. (its not artificially stunted like doctors though)
b) The push for mid-level providers to do most care has been an intentional push for years, not because of jobs being cut - but out of simple efficiency. It's better for the patient to catch things early and deal with them before they get to emergency levels where hospitalization is required - its cheaper, less painful and less time consuming for the patient. It's pants on head retarded to think "Oh it's fucked up that people shouldn't go to the hospital for their primary treatment for everything"
All the "unhealthy lifestyles" that are actual choices people can make are allowed to be penalized with your insurance rates under the ACA. Even obesity if your doctor codes it as you being belligerent about keeping your weight in line. Most of the other obvious ones being penalized automatically. (i.e. Smoking)
a) If he's working part time he's going to qualify for a substantial subsidy unless he's making $100+/hr. Possibly even free if he's low enough income.
b) The average "bottom tier" policy across the US under the ACA is $87/mo before they relaxed the rules on what could be offered. So theoretically slightly better than that.
We don't produce that many doctors not because of demand on any side of the equation - we don't produce that many because the AMA says only X number can be licensed a year. The other factors are immaterial.
Wait times are largely a myth - they're almost always corner cases that are a weak point of the nation that are trumped up to be the norm. And universally low priority stuff like knee replacements and other "comfort" not life or death stuff. [And FYI our wait times in the US for a good doctor to do similar procedures ain't too hot - joint replacements are often 4-12 month wait times in the US]
They could but it's redundant - you're just quoting a Fox talking point that has no substance here. No one that has a policy already has to switch and the policies provided are fundamentally identical - would you change your policy for no damn reason and register a whole bunch of new insurance cards with all your doctors and have to deal with a potentially different customer service method for no reason if you didn't like your previous insurance?
Again pants on head retarded.
But please keep going on and on about your wet dreams of Michelle Malkin that you're having.