Health Care Thread

Unless the employer coverage is sufficiently shit... i think if it's over 10% of agi you're eligible for subsidies and employer pays fine if you use exchange

This pretty much encapsulates everything wrong with the modern left and the modern democrat party. Lie, cheat, steel, fuck everyone and anyone no matter what it takes to get what you want. Damn the consequences.

Encapsulates ALL modern politics - right, left or otherwise you mean.

Blakkheim_sl said:

This pretty much encapsulates everything wrong with the modern left and the modern democrat party. Lie, cheat,steel, fuck everyone and anyone no matter what it takes to get what you want. Damn the consequences...

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Fucking Democrats.

Blakkheim_sl said:

This pretty much encapsulates everything wrong with the modern left and the modern democrat party. Lie, cheat, steel, fuck everyone and anyone no matter what it takes to get what you want. Damn the consequences.

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As others have said, welcome to politics. I'd guess an easy 75% of the bills ever passed wouldn't have been if there was full transparency AND the public understood consequences.

I can't even be that cranky about being called stupid. The electorate, enmass, is as shortsighted as any stockholder. "Fuck the growth that will come from years of R&D research, I want my quarterly dividend" and "Fuck paying for schools and roads. I don't use them/they're in good enough shape and fuck taxes." are they same damn thing in different words.

Shortsightedness is neutral or even a boon if you expect the world to end at the end of this {time increment}. But quarter after quarter, year after year of it is just a race to the bottom. And, surprise, the world hasn't ended yet.

Blakkheim_sl said:

This pretty much encapsulates everything wrong with the modern left and the modern democrat party. Lie, cheat, steel, fuck everyone and anyone no matter what it takes to get what you want. Damn the consequences.

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Did you understand what he said?

Healthinsuranceworks by definition such that healthy people pay more than they get out of it, and sick people get more in benefits than they pay in. How else do you think health insurance works? Not just that provided by the government, but every insurance plan ever? Car insurance, incidentally, also charges safe drivers more to pay for those who get into accidents (or who drive in areas with shitty drivers).

Turns out, nobody wants to pay for sick people. But reframe it such that "if something happens to you, you'll be covered!" -- exactly the same thing (anyone could get injured/sick) -- and suddenly it's a lot more popular. There's no lie here, it's simply making people aware thattheycould be among the sick people tomorrow.

The same holds for the mandate and taxes: if it's a "penalty fee" instead of a tax, that makes a difference. Heck, the Supreme Court ruled on this "technicality." When more than half the legislature refuses to vote for a "tax," but many are fine with voting for a "penalty fee," then that's what you call it. Otherwise, opposing candidates will run based on X instituting a new tax!

Something as trivial as having doctors talk with their patients about end of life care (as in: what do you actually want? Let's put it in writing.) turned into death panels.


Incidentally, I just started drafting a memo on some welfare services and it's insanely bonkers. I have graduate-level training in economics and I can't figure out what it takes for someone to show eligibility for some of these benefits. (Doesn't help that some websites tell you to call someone, or send you to a page that doesn't exist.) Merely composing a list of programs that one might be eligible for is an exercise in futility. Assuming you can track down the major ones, you get such a divergent range of requirements that you have to redo your calculations for every program. Your net income is different for SNAP (food stamps) than for Section 8 (housing), and again different than for TANF (short-term cash - where you have to have less than $1,000 in assets to get anything; talk about shitty incentives), and different for SCHIP (children's insurance), and different for Medicaid. Oh yeah, and much of this varies by state just to make it more fun. They also are all subject to different renewal requirements, different conditions on maintaining eligibility, and different lengths that you can claim them. Shit like money for food runs out after 3 months if you don't find work (cause who needs food anyway?)... it's basically a full-time job just to know what you have to apply for. Also, you lose all of those benefits if you don't continuously look for work, and if you don't find work despite searching. In the worst states (guess where), failing to keep up with all your eligibility requirements means you don't just lose benefits one month, but also are barred from re-applying for some period.

Now that's something where lack of transparency has serious consequences for people. 25% of Earned Income Tax Credits, the most simple thing to collect, go unclaimed -- and that is from people who do actually file their federal income taxes, are eligible to receive EITC, but fail to fill out the form properly to get the money (up to $6k).

So if you want to talk lack of transparency... that'd be a pretty good start. But sure as fuck not whether something is called a fee or a tax, or whether insurance could benefit you when you're sick or someone who is sick now.

Also, anyone who thinks federal taxes are complicated, try figuring out what your gross and net monthly income is as calculated for SNAP:Eligibility | Food and Nutrition Service

edit: actually, just try to figure out what your resources are -- that's the simple part:

Households may have $2,250 in countable resources, such as a bank account, or $3,250 in countable resources if at least one person is age 60 or older, or is disabled. However, certain resources are NOT counted, such as a home and lot, the resources of people who receive Supplemental Security Income (SSI), the resources of people who receive Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF, formerly AFDC), and most retirement (pension) plans. The procedures for handling vehicles are determined at the state level. States have the option of substituting the vehicle rules used in their TANF assistance programs for SNAP vehicle rules when it results in a lower attribution of household assets. A number of States exclude the entire value of the household?s primary vehicle as an asset. In States that count the value of vehicles, the fair market value of each licensed vehicle that is not excluded is evaluated. Currently 39 States exclude the value of all vehicles entirely. 11 States totally exclude the value of at least one vehicle per household. The 3 remaining states exempt an amount higher than the SNAP?s standard auto exemption (currently set at $4,650) from the fair market value to determine the countable resource value of a vehicle. For more information concerning State specific vehicle policy, check with the State agency that administers the SNAP program.

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Yea, I still think it was a bad ruling. Expanding medicare to the entire population is the better way forward. I'm not looking forward to the potential slippery slope the penalty fee schtick may cause.

Maybe that's just politically impossible, but there's a right way to do things and the way things actually get done. They're rarely the same thing.

Who cares, we'll all be dead from Mexicans taking all our healthcare in 50 years

Big Phoenix_sl said:

Obamacare basically gave the .gov unlimited power to force you to do whatever they want because if you dont, they tax you. Fucking idiotic.

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How is this different from tax deductions?

A) You get taxed $1,000 but get a $100 deduction if you buy health insurance
B) You get taxed $900 but get hit with a $100 penalty tax if you don't buy health insurance

Same damn thing. (A) is what every tax deduction available exists for.

Big Phoenix_sl said:

Oh you hit 65 and are retiring? "Retirement" tax! Fork over half of that 401k!

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You do know there's states that already tax retirement accounts once you start drawing on them, right?

Vaclav_sl said:

You do know there's states that already tax retirement accounts once you start drawing on them, right?

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So does the federal government. 401(k) withdrawals are taxable; those from a Roth 401(k) are not.

Soriak_sl said:

So does the federal government. 401(k) withdrawals are taxable; those from a Roth 401(k) are not.

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Even Roth can be in plenty of post-65 cases and besides you paid taxes on Roth on the front-end anyhow.

I think he meant taxed on the earnings of the Roth itself, not the investment going in on the front end.

Blakkheim_sl said:

This pretty much encapsulates everything wrong with the modern left and the modern democrat party. Lie, cheat, steel, fuck everyone and anyone no matter what it takes to get what you want. Damn the consequences.

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How are Democrats left-wing?

Likely true, but Big P's implication that retirement taxes would be a new thing was what I was disagreeing with. Be it front or back-end, almost every retirement option is taxed to some degree. (probably all, but I don't know enough to say for sure)

What would it be a penalty for not doing or a payment for benefit of in your theory? To make it analogous you need a service that's being used - not just random levying.

lol Soriak...

Gruber has made controversial comments in the past, but they don't compare to the comments that came to light this week, six videos in total and counting - including one where he refers to the "stupidity of the American voter." In another, when talking about Obamacare tax credits, he said, "American voters are too stupid to understand the difference."

"If you have a law that makes explicit that healthy people pay in and sick people get money, it wouldn't have passed," Gruber said in a video from 2013. "Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage and, basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever. But basically that was really critical to getting the thing to pass."

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Here's Why Obamacare 'Architect' Jonathan Gruber Is Under Fire - ABC News