Quaid
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...this is not a discussion about what the price of cancer treatment should be. This is a discussion about how much people should pay for it. Stop constructing that absurd strawman.
Health Care Thread
- Thread starter a_skeleton_03
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Your cancer treatment process seemed relatively short compared to other stories I've heard. I have no idea what the averages are.
a_skeleton_03 is extrapolating his 1 experience to the entirety of the healthcare system in both cost and efficiency both of which are so variable it's not even worth talking about.
Frenzied Wombat
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This. My mother had ovarian cancer that was treated over nine years, she had insurance through my stepdad, and her accumulated bills over this period was 100K+. You want that top gynecological oncological surgeon that's inevitably "out of network" because he can pick and choose patients? Be ready to pay up because he isn't going to accept what insurance pays him. Same thing with my stepdad that's a neurosurgeon that specializes in spinal cord tumors. He's not "in network" with any insurance company because he has more potential patients/clients than he can handle, all willing to pay his price.
Like I said, the US system is great if you get cured fast or die fast. Lingering conditions will suck you dry financially.
You take my 1 time and extrapolate it over time. That is why I stated it was 6 months long.
To be cured of cancer or even to go through treatment and not be cured is the same process.
I paid $9k for that 6 months. That was 6k for my deductible (not high and not low) and $400 each month for premiums. You move that to a year and it would go up to almost 11k. You are saying 11k a year to keep someone alive from one of the worst diseases we know is too much money? Come on now. You can't even pay for the electricity used during that year with that little amount of money.
To be cured of cancer or even to go through treatment and not be cured is the same process.
I paid $9k for that 6 months. That was 6k for my deductible (not high and not low) and $400 each month for premiums. You move that to a year and it would go up to almost 11k. You are saying 11k a year to keep someone alive from one of the worst diseases we know is too much money? Come on now. You can't even pay for the electricity used during that year with that little amount of money.
Cad
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This is just nonsensical. The amount you paid is meaningless. All that matters is whether via an aggregate of payments of all the people, healthy and sick, was the system funded adequately? There's no "well is $11k worth it to cure cancer" because to the guy with cancer, ANY amount is ok. They won't be rational actors. Which is why we spread the expense of health care through the whole society.
Frenzied Wombat
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The "quality" you are referencing is available to maybe the 1% of the population that can afford it. A rich Canadian that is facing a life threatening disease and discovers that the best surgeon for his condition in the world happens to live in NYC will travel there and pay whatever it takes to save his life. The "concierge" service he/she receives will be beyond what any American, with any level of insurance receives because he is paying CASH. Americans are travelling to places like Thailand (which BTW has stunning modern hospitals with American trained doctors) because he can receive BETTER care at a fraction of the price, depending on the procedure.
When 99% of the quality is no better than elsewhere at 4X the cost, then the remaining 1% that happens to be better for those that are uber rich does not make it a better system.
Again, there are pros and cons to both systems depending on your illness and financial position. Have a herniated disc and need an mri and an elective discotomoty, and have good insurance? I'd rather be in the USA. Have some chronic condition that requires ongoing meds, diagnostics, and doctor visits? Canada please.
It has to matter because it shows the 'max' I could pay in that kind of scenario and what benefits I could get.
So you are saying how much should one pay in a monthly premium so the whole country is taken care of, right? I am saying let's take a worst case scenario where someone has activated their full benefits and see what they get out of it for their premiums + deductible. For $9k I bent that hospital over and took it in the ass and didn't give it a reach around.
Vaclav
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Seriously? There waivers you can get to extend VA benefits out for such? Kinda confused why friends have gotten stuff like thyroid covered then. Unless it was under family benefits.
Frenzied Wombat
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And what do you think the "actual" cost of treatment was? Because that was what is inevitably 4X more expensive than other nations, and that's the real problem. Also, your treatment was atypical. Most people don't get their cancer knocked out in once chemo cycle and wash their hands of it in 6 months. What if it dragged on for years while you had to subsist on long term disability AND pay your annual deductibles? What if you were so weak from chemo that you had to pay for nursing assistance at home AND someone to run errands for you? What if your treatments were unsuccessful, and avastin studies showed it was effective in your cancer type yet your insurance wouldn't cover? What is you needed surgery, and the best surgeon was out of network with your provider? Would you pay yourself into near bankruptcy for the chance to save your life? My mother faced all these scenarios, it's just a good thing her husband was wealthy and could pay for it all.
These are the choices people make every day in the US-- money or their life. It's gross.
My treatment might have been atypical and that is why I stated that even if I hadn't of been cured it was the same exact treatment, chemo. The only difference is how long it takes. The treatment method is the same. Chemo didn't cure you in 6 months? Guess what your next 6 months are going to do?
The actual cost of treatment was significantly higher both overseas or here. You forget I started my treatment in the great socialist medicine country of Germany where I paid the ACTUAL cost of everything in straight cash. I paid $900 for a scan and that was the actual cost of it.
Cad
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The "deductible" thing is just a cost-shift to the consumer from the insurance company. I think they should cost-shift more evenly and fund the whole system from a monthly premium adjusted for income to a certain degree. Kind of like a progressive income tax...
Vaclav
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a) Cancer isn't even remotely close to the worst disease out there. Not to mention, varieties of cancer vary highly in how awful they are. Pancreatic and Liver for example are super terrible. Yours sounds Lymph with the location you mentioned? Not sure severity on that though. [I do know Lymph is what they worry about getting cancer next if it recurs in a new spot though - in fact never heard of it occurring by itself, not that that means anything...]
b) I've never in my entire life paid an electric bill over $350 (MD was around $220/mo average with a 2.8k sq ft place - here in FL around $310/mo average in 2.2k but I do run AC 24/7/365 basically) - and I'm hardly frugal with energy use, nor have any of my places been smaller than an average place. Heck, for FL they keep public lists of average consumption by county - and average here is a whopping ~$100/mo. (I assume it includes apartments) So that seems to be a bit of an exaggeration to me.
c) For people picking on a_skeleton_03's "atypical experience" - I'll just weigh in that the folks in my family that got cancer have had similarly great experiences where it wasn't very painful financially (and I think it all came at Medicare age where they were basically on the hook for nothing as well) - I did see it wreck my neighbors family in MD however as well as others. So while I'd agree his experience was likely "atypical", it doesn't seem THAT remote either. Some cancers having a really good batting average where it's down to an almost perfect science - and if you're lucky enough to get those, it doesn't seem that costly.
I meant the electricity of the scanners that take a huge power draw ....
I am talking the power used to turn the lights on in your exam room ....
I am talking the power used to turn the lights on in your exam room ....
Vaclav
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Ah, gotcha - I still doubt the floods and such for the rooms draw that much either though. Hospitals do use a ton of power overall but remember the average hospital is gigantic, if you're parsing it down to just what they use, I don't think you'd find it anywhere close. (Especially considering it's not JUST your exam room, etc - it's probably split over at least another 4-5 patients a day)
An MRI uses 20kW an hour and is 3 phase power and a scan is about an hour. That actually might not be as expensive as I thought but it isn't super cheap.
Cad
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Did you just fabricate the percentage number of 1% being able to afford quality healthcare out of thin air? That is nothing but absurd hyperbole and renders any point you made invalid. I'll debunk that easily.
Roughly 10-12% of the US workforce are Union members. These workers are traditionally loyal Democrats voters. One of the perks of being in a union is access to "Cadillac" health plans, which are considered the best healthcare plans out there. Many non-Union companies who offer healthcare as a benefit give their employees a choice between basic plans and Cadillac plans. My employer gives that option and I went with the Cadillac plan. I am definitely not a super rich 1%er.
When you combine the union workers along with everyone else who has Cadillac plans, that number is well over 1%.
Cad
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