Hearthstone

It's definitely getting harder. I've got all the cards now but a few rares and the legendaries without crafting much at all purely from arenas. I've spent $38 in blizz bucks from Diablo to do it. I was consistently winning 7-8 last week and now it's 5-7. The aggressive way everyone is drafting now is making it much harder to outplay people. Now whoever gets the tempo advantage from their initial draw wins most games unless the other person has major ways to take board control back. Priest was like an insta 7+ a couple of weeks ago because you could just abuse the heal and mind control to win almost every game through sheer board/card advantage anyway. Now when I go priest I have to draft an aggressive curve still because people have learned how to just kill you, espeically hunters and mages. I can't tell you how many times I've 8 or 9 win'd with a rogue or paladin deck I considered subpar just because I made guys and turned them sideways. The fact you can't assign blockers means the person who is more aggressive is inherently advantaged because if I hit you with my two drop then you trade your two drop for it I have got a card and damage. Being aggressive is just stupidly powerful. There are so many dumb ways to get the last few points of damage with all the charge/direct damage, etc stupidity.

I honestly think the game is really, really flawed. It has none of the depth of MTG and the system they are using makes it very difficult to play a control deck against a competent player. It's all about who can get tempo advantage and kill the other guy first, period.

That said, it requires very little thought to play, it is amusing, and I can do it while surfing the web or listening to podcasts or watching TV. If I had to spend any real money I'd never play it again though. They are going to make so much money just from people who can't not draft. I know people who spent thousands on MTGO and this will be like that only 100000 times worse, because people who were bad at MTG didn't play MTGO much, and there are a shit ton of people bad at this game who will play the shit out of it.

Gilgamel_sl said:

I honestly think the game is really, really flawed. It has none of the depth of MTG and the system they are using makes it very difficult to play a control deck against a competent player. It's all about who can get tempo advantage and kill the other guy first, period.

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I agree with this. Initially I thought it had enough complexity. The more I played it however, it really seemed that the metagame would always revolve around ultra-fast tempo decks.

Neph_sl said:

Inevitably, Blizzard is going to add more variety with expansions, but that's at least a year away, if not two years given the pace that they develop and the fact that this game isn't even in open beta yet. One thing that would help would be to add more lower cost neutral epic/legendaries that do weird/interesting things. Doomsayer is kind of in the right vein, but is easy enough to handle.

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I was wondering if we might see a faster update cycle with this game than the usual Blizzard pace. Doesn't seem like it should require much work programming wise given how simple the actual game is, but I suppose they could still be slow about testing or balancing decisions.

khalid_sl said:

I agree with this. Initially I thought it had enough complexity. The more I played it however, it really seemed that the metagame would always revolve around ultra-fast tempo decks.

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Haven't played the game yet but seeing as how it just released I'm sure they'll be adding more depth and complexity as times goes on. MTG wasn't that in depth when it first released either and some of the mechanics and cards were beyond retarded.

Famm_sl said:

I was wondering if we might see a faster update cycle with this game than the usual Blizzard pace. Doesn't seem like it should require much work programming wise given how simple the actual game is, but I suppose they could still be slow about testing or balancing decisions.

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I always thought these games thrived on imbalance.

It is possible Lumie but I have my doubts. The core rule-set would need some major changes if it ever wants to be balanced and/or more complex. We are talking very basic stuff like actions during your opponent's turn, some sort of a blocking system beyond taunt and so much more really.

I wouldn't expect them to duplicate Magic but still, in trying to make a game that is casual and friendly they seem to have made one that punishes casual players horribly. Not because of access to cards mind you, just because what will seem smart to casual players will lose them matches. Consistently.

Well Hearthstone has become pretty much unplayable for me. Retards all playing the same "# 1 rogue deck" and its getting pretty old. GG diversity.

Damn. Just played a Warlock who totally baited me. Turn 1 Flame Imp, I coined into Slam to get rid of it. Turn 2 Murloc Tidehunter (2/1 that summons a 1/1 murloc), so I charge my 1/2 Novice Engineer into the 1/1. Turn 3, he just lifetaps, so I charge my Leper Gnome into the 2/1 to clear it. At this point, I'm thinking he's fishing for more murlocs, but then he starts playing regular minions. Turn 4 was a Taz'dingo, Turn 5 was a Summoning Portal, and then he just pumps more non-murlocs.

Since I burned 4 cards getting rid of the 1 tidehunter in the very beginning, he has massive card advantage and I can only throw down the minions that I top deck. So he just uses removal on my minions and he chips me away until he wins.

The thing is that if you don't take care of the early game murlocs, the +hp buffs fromMurloc WarleaderandColdlight Seercan really get out of hand. Either way, baiting me with that early murloc was pretty genius.

My last 5 drafts:

5-0 and then 0-3 so TOTAL 5-3
5-0 and then 0-3 so TOTAL 5-3
5-0 and then 0-3 so TOTAL 5-3
0-2 and then 8-0 and 0-1 so TOTAL 8-3
4-0 and then 0-2 and then 5-0 so 9-2.

Apparently I neither win or lose in moderation. RNG either hates me or loves me. It gets really frusrating though. I don't get angry during a really good, even game, nor do I enjoy curbstomping someone. I like a good long nervewrecking game. Mind Control sure seems to ruin that though. Won a clench game by Mind Controlling a Ysera and then lost 3 by getting shit Mind Controlled 2 turns in a row.

Starting to wonder if maybe some cards shouldn't be allowed in arena as it's going to cause the same bullshit balance freakouts/ragequits as it did in WoW. I'm not out shouting from the rooftops about it, but when I did a little bit of an anger google after it happened to me I saw lots of people fighting over balance in arena vs. competitive. Whatcha guys think? The RNG in MTG drafts is way less chaotic imo, and I like it that way. In MTG draftsI have consistently been a top player for the last 7 years or so. Even back when we had 200 person pre releases I would win 2 or 3 flights a day, and at the worst get 2nd or 3rd with maybe not getting top 3 once a year out of more than a dozen pre release drafts. But in Arena my average is around 5-6 wins. Was also a top SWCCG player for many years despite being 11-15 years old most of the time it was out and SWCCG was by far the most complicated, difficult card game ever invented.

But like you guys have said, the math doesn't lie. I just feel like I should be doing better. I should average like 7.4 imo. I suppose the interesting thing to consider is that with MTG, there is a set depth of RNG within a single bundle of cards (e.g. 66.6% of a booster box used for one 8 person draft) wherein the math allows for only a specific range of RNG where the number of bombs/mythics or whatever (despite many MTG mythics sucking) within that number of packs. Whereas in a digital format, every player is hitting the RNG separately in a vacuum and then playing one another. Does any of that make sense? I suck at maths, I'm just thinking about the whole bayesian physics thing with the game show and the 2 sheep/1 car 3door thingy. Anyone smarter than me wanna follow through with my thought process here? (e.g you can get 20-22 legendaries in a Hearthstone draft right? whereas it's impossible to even get say 6 mythics in a MTG draft... I feel like there is a connection here with bayesian physics).

Penance_sl said:

I always thought these games thrived on imbalance.

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they do. its alot like moba's.

They have to constantly change up the "perfect" decks, and "metas", to keep you buying new cards, and trying new builds.



Alot more cards would certainly help.

But as for more complexity. didn't people say it was more complex in earlier beta at one point, and some things were removed to make it MORE stream lined?

Caliane_sl said:

they do. its alot like moba's.

They have to constantly change up the "perfect" decks, and "metas", to keep you buying new cards, and trying new builds.



Alot more cards would certainly help.

But as for more complexity. didn't people say it was more complex in earlier beta at one point, and some things were removed to make it MORE stream lined?

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Precisely.

Extra Credits: Perfect Imbalance - YouTube

Yeah I was having some great ideas for cards last night. Ala'kir the Windlord for example. Terribly designed card. But if they even made him a tad more complex to allow for interesting combat tricks, he'd be good and the game would also be more complex and deep for it (assuming other extra cards to have more complicated design as well). What if Ala'kir was like 8 Mana for a 4/4 with Taunt/Divine Shield and "Deathrattle: Summon 2 1/1 Elementals that have: Battlecry: Deal 2 Damage". Then your opponent has to think twice about killing the target, because Ala'kir's owner effectively has a neat combat trick when you do so. And because of the taunt, Ala'kir's owner gets to respond to other creatures before they can go through. So you haven't actually added "instants" into the game, but you've done something of the like, kind of a half measure/step.

The game does allow for more complexity once you get into it though. I was having a blast last night in my draft with 4 Venture Co Mercenaries and 3 Sleep Owls/1 Silence Elf. Or stuff like Shadow Madness + Brewmaster. But it definitely needs more ways to react to the opponent. Secrets are really fucking stupid imo because it seems like the laziest attempt ever at having "some kind of reaction/instant" and yet it's horribly designed because any decent player is going to work around them easily. Making all the secrets the same mana does NOT do a damn thing to compare to not being able to see an opponent's hand/instants in MTG.

The number of times I see complex thoughts/planning going on in this game is far too rare (e.g. when you see yourself or your opponent doing odd things like not attacking at all or passing turns when there are other options... or especially both of you doing it for several turns in a row). I just drafted a really complicated/fun Warrior deck with lots of Enrage and Slam/Whirlwind/0Mana Charge Spells & 4 diff creatures with spell damage. That was the most complicated shit I've seen and it was ALMOST at the level of real fun and real strategy, but not quite. Had to time your self damage to trigger enrage with spell power & charge and all sorts of crazy shit. Had to hold my taunts past what seemed counterintuitive and uncomfortable, saving weapon attack for free Corsairs, calculating statistics/probability of cards in their hand etc. It was actually really crazy and I found myself doing a lot of quick math & quickly looking at the screenshot I took of my decklist once in the end to do some math and decide the best choice.

Opponents shouldn't even be able to see that you played a secret. Your mana should appear unspent that turn. That way it would be a real secret.

Wonder if a new wave of invites went out, I got mine finally. Unfortunately I have to drive over to Orlando for the day but I'll check it out tonight.

You think this thing releases in the next two months like they are saying? Mostly as is? Or maybe it will get pushed back?

Fadaar_sl said:

Wonder if a new wave of invites went out, I got mine finally. Unfortunately I have to drive over to Orlando for the day but I'll check it out tonight.

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They stopped giving them out ? They said no more till Open Beta. Are you sure you just didn't see it until now? Although prices do seem to have gone down within the last few days. I sold my key for $39.99 on Thursday instantly on Ebay, and now I have been seeing a couple for under $30. Possibly just because it's closer to Open beta though.

Does anyone know how the gold reimbursement works? Is it only for real money spent? Because what if you spent real money to get $10 credit, and then turned it into gold and used that for Arena and/or packs? I guess it only tracks actual dollars spent? Was totally thinking I'd get to reclaim all these dailies gold haha darn

@Fawe I dunno I play pretty damn casually and while the math says that it takes 1.5 years of playing 3 hours every single day to get every single card and that is extremely stupid, they are also adding in adventure mode and other ways to get gold. When that happens it'll be better, but right now it's stupid. It's also super random. Like sometimes if you're casual and even decent and average 4-6 wins in Arena, you'll only get an Arena every 2.5-3 days, and other times you'll get 2 arenas on one day and another 2 the next (like getting a 100g quest, and then getting an 85g arena reward for 5wins, and another 40g quest which equates to just about 2 arenas). My shared account with my gf (she's only earned about 7 packs) and I has 34 rares, 2 legendaries and 5 epics with $0 spent. So 41 packs earned after like 370+ games or so.

Prizes for arena have definitely gone up tho. Well they did so a while ago, a few weeks yea? This was my most recent 8-3. What's the most you can get these days for 8 or 9? Is it still better to leave the draft after 8 wins?

What they need are more creative quests (e.g. a weekly quest that allows you to trade in 1 for 1 any rare/epic or legendary). They can make the quest take a little while if it's epic or legendary, fine, but only owning 30-40 rares/epics/legendaries in your collection, total and then being FORCED to disenchant a rare/epic/legendary at a ridiculously pathetic ratio is just dumb. I dislike Shaman/Rogue/Druid and yet despite having only 40ish cards that are higher than commons: I have x2 Perdition Blade, x2 Headcrack, x3 Mana Tide Totem, x2 Lava Burst, x3 Nourish, x2 Ancient of Lore, x2 Savagery and even a couple of other really dumb rares like x3 Mana Beast or whatever, the one that makes other minions +1. wtf? At least in other card games you can trade them to other players and not get TOTALLY shafted up the ass.

Mr. MorrowGirl_sl said:

The game does allow for more complexity once you get into it though. I was having a blast last night in my draft with 4 Venture Co Mercenaries and 3 Sleep Owls/1 Silence Elf. Or stuff like Shadow Madness + Brewmaster. But it definitely needs more ways to react to the opponent. Secrets are really fucking stupid imo because it seems like the laziest attempt ever at having "some kind of reaction/instant" and yet it's horribly designed because any decent player is going to work around them easily. Making all the secrets the same mana does NOT do a damn thing to compare to not being able to see an opponent's hand/instants in MTG.

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yeah. one of the things I would do right quick, and I fully expect it to be implemented more at some point, is extend the tag system.
Meaning, right now.
Every card is either minion or spell. hrm, actually are weapons spells, or a third class?
Spells can be spells or secrets.
minions then have several special catagorys/tags.
Pirate, Dragon, Murloc, Beast, Demon, totem.

It would take that system for minions further. where is mechanical? arcane golem, dragonling, alarmobot, tinkmasters summons, harvester for example. Arcane.(that golem again, azure drake, manawryms, etc) Mercenary(rogues and booty bay guys here.) or perhaps booty bay guys should be pirates as well. Elementals.
armorsmiths/engineers/weaponsmiths. maybe they should all have a catagory.

Also, captains parrot is a beast. I would also very much consider letting cards fit into more then one. as then it allows a card to fit into multiple decks, and not just one specific one.

I mean, take the dragonling mechanic.
Imagine that card was tagged for the "Smiths" tag. then the dragonling, was a dragon AND mechanical.
So that, in addition to any cards that might have effects that effect these things suddenly adds all sorts of play options for that card. And what was a fairly simple and straight forward card, is now quite complex.


There aren't any actual cards that effect dragons atm are there? Despite the tag?

No dragon cards. I suspect the tag was just preemptive as I imagine they will indeed add more tags in the future. Obviously there's lots of potential there, as well as with more weapons and heroes. It's lazy not to have caster weapons that instead of losing 1 durability on attacking, lose 1 durability on every cast. "Staff of Jordan" : (5Mana) 0/2. +2 Spellpower, Whenever you do soandso, add 1 durability, etc. It's silly that only some classes get to enjoy weapons or different hero upgrades, but then again I guess it is only the basic set. I just love the game and also hate it sometimes, so I want it to be the best it can be and it has so much potential. I don't want it too complicated, as it being somewhat simple is what makes it special, but right now RNG is too strong.

I'm sure it's obvious at this point andi will sound likea total nit. Are accounts cross platform? Will my pc account be payable my Android