House of the Dragon

Sylas · Jul 29, 2024

you think some youtuber with 4k subscribers is a mainstream media source? Lol

I know you are just upset that you were wrong about the fox universe in the deadpool and Wolverine thread, but this is a really weird hill to die on... are you ok bro?

Lenas said:
None of them matter, they all die for no fucking reason. We know how this ends.

And yeah none of these deaths matter everyone dies.

Technically speaking, Daemon "wins" the dance of dragons.

I mean of course he dies along with everyone else, but his 4 children, his two daughters (Baela and Rhaena) with Laena Velaryon, and his two sons (Aegon III and Viserys) with Rhaenyra, are literally the only 4 Targaryans who survive, though Viserys is believed to be dead for another 10 years as a captive of a Lyseni pirate king.

Also, the Westeros Supreme Court formally solidifies the laws of succession, overruling any royal decree, the rules officially become that the entire male line of the king takes precedence over the female, only once the entire male line is extinguished can you even consider a woman for queen. Basically to ensure that this shit never happens again they strip women of any and all agency, even more so than normal, so gonna be lolsy to see how they girlpower that up.

Before the war when Viserys died, the "common law" line of succession was:
Aegon II, and if Aegon the II ruled, it would then go to his sons, Jahaerys (his first born son), then Maekor (his 2nd son), then even Jahaera his daughter, though they were all too young to rule outright and would need a regent. If Aegon II had never been crowned, then the crown would pass to his brothers Aemond then Daeron, then after Viserys 3 sons, it would go to his oldest daughter Rhaenyra, who would be 4th in line.

Thus the succession looked like this (indents is if the parent ruled, their children move up the list):
Aegon II
------Jahaerys
------Maekor
------Jahaera
Aemond
Daeron
Rhaenyra
------Jacaerys
------Lucerys
------Joffrey
------Aegon III
------Viserys
Daemon (making daemon 5th or 13th in the succession, depending on when the deaths occurred.)

But after the dance of dragons, the official succession became:

Aegon II
------Jahaerys
------Maekor
Aemond
Daeron
Daemon (now 4th, or 6th)
------Aegon III
------Viserys
Jacaerys
Lucerys
Joffrey
Rhaenyra, making her 8th (or 12th) in line, coming even after her own sons.

Bandwagon · Jul 29, 2024

Sylas said:
you think some youtuber with 4k subscribers is a mainstream media source? Lol

I know you are just upset that you were wrong about the fox universe in the deadpool and Wolverine thread, but this is a really weird hill to die on... are you ok bro?

And yeah none of these deaths matter everyone dies.

Technically speaking, Daemon "wins" the dance of dragons.

I mean of course he dies along with everyone else, but his 4 children, his two daughters (Baela and Rhaena) with Laena Velaryon, and his two sons (Aegon III and Viserys) with Rhaenyra, are literally the only 4 Targaryans who survive, though Viserys is believed to be dead for another 10 years as a captive of a Lyseni pirate king.

Also, the Westeros Supreme Court formally solidifies the laws of succession, overruling any royal decree, the rules officially become that the entire male line of the king takes precedence over the female, only once the entire male line is extinguished can you even consider a woman for queen. Basically to ensure that this shit never happens again they strip women of any and all agency, even more so than normal, so gonna be lolsy to see how they girlpower that up.

Before the war when Viserys died, the "common law" line of succession was:
Aegon II, and if Aegon the II ruled, it would then go to his sons, Jahaerys (his first born son), then Maekor (his 2nd son), then even Jahaera his daughter, though they were all too young to rule outright and would need a regent. If Aegon II had never been crowned, then the crown would pass to his brothers Aemond then Daeron, then after Viserys 3 sons, it would go to his oldest daughter Rhaenyra, who would be 4th in line.

Thus the succession looked like this (indents is if the parent ruled, their children move up the list):
Aegon II
------Jahaerys
------Maekor
------Jahaera
Aemond
Daeron
Rhaenyra
------Jacaerys
------Lucerys
------Joffrey
------Aegon III
------Viserys
Daemon (making daemon 5th or 13th in the succession, depending on when the deaths occurred.)

But after the dance of dragons, the official succession became:

Aegon II
------Jahaerys
------Maekor
Aemond
Daeron
Daemon (now 4th, or 6th)
------Aegon III
------Viserys
Jacaerys
Lucerys
Joffrey
Rhaenyra, making her 8th (or 12th) in line, coming even after her own sons.

That's some high level autism. Bravo

Ossoi · Jul 30, 2024

Sylas said:
you think some youtuber with 4k subscribers is a mainstream media source? Lol

Beaten to it by

Bandwagon

spronk · Jul 30, 2024

class of 24 had a lot of free agents who were on fire

Sanrith Descartes · Jul 30, 2024

So, the smith who got Vermithor was the son of of the sister of Daemon and Viserys (sp?). And she was working in a whorehouse as a whore? Is that what he said? A princess of the realm was a common whore?

Or was he saying she was a princess who liked to go fuck smallfolk in a whorehouse? He says something about smallfolk paying a premium to fuck a whore with silver hair (referring to his mom) so it seems to imply his mom was a working whore.

Like, how would this be a secret? And if it wasn't a secret, how does this not get mentioned until now? All of those scenes with her two brothers and they never mention their whore of a sister when talking about their early years.

That being said, the episode wasn't bad (compared to the rest of the season). Daemon's story appears to finally be moving forward after 6 episodes of bad dreams. It was obvious who would get the dragons. Its like when tv shows bring in a famous actor playing a bit part for the episode. You know he is really the murderer because he is the famous actor. The writers telegraphed these two with all their screen time.

Finally, wtf is up with the black chick who was put in charge of the infants. You get charged with protecting the royal infants and decide to just go run off to grab a dragon leaving them infants to keep rolling down the road. Just sad. When she gets the super dragon I am sure she will head back to Dragonstone full of "look at my black woman power".

Sylas · Jul 30, 2024

Sanrith Descartes said:
So, the smith who got Vermithor was the son of of the sister of Daemon and Viserys (sp?). And she was working in a whorehouse as a whore? Is that what he said? A princess of the realm was a common whore?

Or was he saying she was a princess who liked to go fuck smallfolk in a whorehouse? He says something about smallfolk paying a premium to fuck a whore with silver hair (referring to his mom) so it seems to imply his mom was a working whore.

Like, how would this be a secret? And if it wasn't a secret, how does this not get mentioned until now? All of those scenes with her two brothers and they never mention their whore of a sister when talking about their early years.

That being said, the episode wasn't bad (compared to the rest of the season). Daemon's story appears to finally be moving forward after 6 episodes of bad dreams. It was obvious who would get the dragons. Its like when tv shows bring in a famous actor playing a bit part for the episode. You know he is really the murderer because he is the famous actor. The writers telegraphed these two with all their screen time.

Finally, wtf is up with the black chick who was put in charge of the infants. You get charged with protecting the royal infants and decide to just go run off to grab a dragon leaving them infants to keep rolling down the road. Just sad. When she gets the super dragon I am sure she will head back to Dragonstone full of "look at my black woman power".

All of these are good questions they are all drastic changes from the book or entirely invented for the tv show only. Ie there is no Targaryan princess whore and rhaena is being merged with an entirely different character who was not responsible for looking after the kids.

Sanrith Descartes · Jul 30, 2024

Sylas said:
All of these are good questions they are all drastic changes from the book or entirely invented for the tv show only. Ie there is no Targaryan princess whore and rhaena is being merged with an entirely different character who was not responsible for looking after the kids.

So just more shitty writing?

Chris · Jul 30, 2024

Sanrith Descartes said:
So, the smith who got Vermithor was the son of of the sister of Daemon and Viserys (sp?). And she was working in a whorehouse as a whore? Is that what he said? A princess of the realm was a common whore?

I wasn't fully listening, but I assumed she was illegitimate (her mother was also a whore) and she was talking about getting extra coin for having the silver hair and cosplaying a princess.

I hope she wasn't actually a princess because then it wouldn't be historically accurate to the real events.

Breakdown · Jul 30, 2024

Chris said:
I wasn't fully listening, but I assumed she was illegitimate (her mother was also a whore) and she was talking about getting extra coin for having the silver hair and cosplaying a princess.

I hope she wasn't actually a princess because then it wouldn't be historically accurate to the real events.

In the lore Old King Jaeherys has a daughter that fucks some knights as ateen and loses her honor. He locks her away. She tries to break loose and steal a dragon and is exiled. She then goes to the free cities and becomes a whore because who wouldnt pay big money to fuck a Targaryen. She has 3 bastards.

When All of Jaeherys heirs die he has council at Harrenhal where all can claim to be his heir and the Lords of Westeros will choose the new one.

At this Council her 3 bastards show up but are denied due to being low born bastards from a female line. the two finalists are Laenor Velaryon, his Great Grandson through his Oldest dead Son Aemons Daughter Rhaenys. And Viserys, who becomes king, first son of Baelon who is his 3rd dead son I think?

People are saying Hugh must be one of her sons the writers changed. But until i found that out later my first though was king Jaeherys had a bastard daughter who became a whore. I think this is more likely than assigning her to an changed existing character they havent mentioned in the show.

Breakdown · Jul 30, 2024

One thing to note, they are really going hard on the whole bastard thing this season.

Bastards in westeros arent always just throwaways. Most of the time they are raised near the family or have relationships with the families. Especially after Aegon 4 legitamizes all his bastards on his death bed, hands him the Targaryen King Valarian sword, and sets off 100 years of rebellions.

Look at Ned Stark and Jon Snow. Thats the typical bastard situation but this show is really making it like alot more of a shameful thing. Like really the big draw back is not being able to live as a high born or inherit lands. They arent throwaway trash that are hidden and shameful or hated.

Shit, Aegon the Conqueror's best friend, Hand, and bastard half brother Orys Baratheon was the 2nd most powerful man in westeros. He was so powerful that during the early wars Aegon offered Orys as marriage pact to the Storm Lands king to be part of the peace agreement to bend the knee. Their king said no, so they conquered the Stormlands and founded Hous Baratheon of Sotrms end and thats been one of the great houses since. All for a bastard founder.

Sanrith Descartes · Jul 30, 2024

Breakdown said:
One thing to note, they are really going hard on the whole bastard thing this season.

Bastards in westeros arent always just throwaways. Most of the time they are raised near the family or have relationships with the families. Especially after Aegon 4 legitamizes all his bastards on his death bed, hands him the Targaryen King Valarian sword, and sets off 100 years of rebellions.

Look at Ned Stark and Jon Snow. Thats the typical bastard situation but this show is really making it like alot more of a shameful thing. Like really the big draw back is not being able to live as a high born or inherit lands. They arent throwaway trash that are hidden and shameful or hated.

Shit, Aegon the Conqueror's best friend, Hand, and bastard half brother Orys Baratheon was the 2nd most powerful man in westeros. He was so powerful that during the early wars Aegon offered Orys as marriage pact to the Storm Lands king to be part of the peace agreement to bend the knee. Their king said no, so they conquered the Stormlands and founded Hous Baratheon of Sotrms end and thats been one of the great houses since. All for a bastard founder.

Look how close Roose Bolton kept Ramsay. It worked out great for Roose. :trollface:

Chris · Jul 30, 2024

Breakdown said:
One thing to note, they are really going hard on the whole bastard thing this season.

Bastards in westeros arent always just throwaways. Most of the time they are raised near the family or have relationships with the families. Especially after Aegon 4 legitamizes all his bastards on his death bed, hands him the Targaryen King Valarian sword, and sets off 100 years of rebellions.

Look at Ned Stark and Jon Snow. Thats the typical bastard situation but this show is really making it like alot more of a shameful thing. Like really the big draw back is not being able to live as a high born or inherit lands. They arent throwaway trash that are hidden and shameful or hated.

Shit, Aegon the Conqueror's best friend, Hand, and bastard half brother Orys Baratheon was the 2nd most powerful man in westeros. He was so powerful that during the early wars Aegon offered Orys as marriage pact to the Storm Lands king to be part of the peace agreement to bend the knee. Their king said no, so they conquered the Stormlands and founded Hous Baratheon of Sotrms end and thats been one of the great houses since. All for a bastard founder.

It's how it was IRL.

A bastard was either a secret shame or an open secret depending on the relative power and competence of the people in question.

Nobody was going after William the Conqueror because he was a bastard, because you would die.

Sylas · Jul 30, 2024

Breakdown said:
In the lore Old King Jaeherys has a daughter that fucks some knights as ateen and loses her honor. He locks her away. She tries to break loose and steal a dragon and is exiled. She then goes to the free cities and becomes a whore because who wouldnt pay big money to fuck a Targaryen. She has 3 bastards.

When All of Jaeherys heirs die he has council at Harrenhal where all can claim to be his heir and the Lords of Westeros will choose the new one.

At this Council her 3 bastards show up but are denied due to being low born bastards from a female line. the two finalists are Laenor Velaryon, his Great Grandson through his Oldest dead Son Aemons Daughter Rhaenys. And Viserys, who becomes king, first son of Baelon who is his 3rd dead son I think?

People are saying Hugh must be one of her sons the writers changed. But until i found that out later my first though was king Jaeherys had a bastard daughter who became a whore. I think this is more likely than assigning her to an changed existing character they havent mentioned in the show.

I mentioned all this in my live view breakdown for the episode, it is implied that they are referring to Saera Targaryan, but they changed her history to be a whore working in a whorehouse in King's landing. In the book she leaves to the free cities, not to become a whore so much as she owned a brothel/pleasure house there. Her bastard sons were not from low born commoners but from the lords of Volantis and Lys. She just never married, thus her children were "bastards" but they were the sons of highborn lords themselves.

your other point is correct somewhat, not all bastards were treated like shit, it really depends on who the other parent was. Many/most of the famous bastards throughout history were the children of two highborns who had an affair, for example all of Maegor's bastards were children of various highborn noble women, some of them married, but he was the king and he fucked who he wanted to, married or not. So many bastards in westeros are what are called "high born" bastards, or "natural" children. These are typically claimed and while they may raise them with their own children, they often send them off to be wards or fostered by other noble families so that the child at least has a taste of highborn life and not living like a peasant.

Then there are the baseborn bastards, which is when a noble fucks some tavern wench, bar maid, or whore, usually in some drunken one night stand but occasionally a longer relationship. those bastards are generally treated like shit.

for whatever reason they want Hugh and Ulf to be highborn bastards and not just street rat gutter trash, whatever, just makes selling their betrayal more complicated.

Breakdown · Jul 30, 2024

Sanrith Descartes said:
Look how close Roose Bolton kept Ramsay. It worked out great for Roose.

I mean, Ramsay, Jon Snow, Eldric Storm (Roberts son), all 8 of the proper sand snakes, are 1/3 of the books we have read.

Sylas said:
I mentioned all this in my live view breakdown for the episode, it is implied that they are referring to Saera Targaryan, but they changed her history to be a whore working in a whorehouse in King's landing. In the book she leaves to the free cities, not to become a whore so much as she owned a brothel/pleasure house there. Her bastard sons were not from low born commoners but from the lords of Volantis and Lys. She just never married, thus her children were "bastards" but they were the sons of highborn lords themselves.

your other point is correct somewhat, not all bastards were treated like shit, it really depends on who the other parent was. Many/most of the famous bastards throughout history were the children of two highborns who had an affair, for example all of Maegor's bastards were children of various highborn noble women, some of them married, but he was the king and he fucked who he wanted to, married or not. So many bastards in westeros are what are called "high born" bastards, or "natural" children. These are typically claimed and while they may raise them with their own children, they often send them off to be wards or fostered by other noble families so that the child at least has a taste of highborn life and not living like a peasant.

Then there are the baseborn bastards, which is when a noble fucks some tavern wench, bar maid, or whore, usually in some drunken one night stand but occasionally a longer relationship. those bastards are generally treated like shit.

for whatever reason they want Hugh and Ulf to be highborn bastards and not just street rat gutter trash, whatever, just makes selling their betrayal more complicated.

it always confused me. Jon Snow is the son (in theory) of the warden of the north and a riverlands bar wench. Yet he was raised as highborn bastard. and no one but Cat really questioned it. We all know why now.

Same with Ramsay. But yeah you make fair points about the high born nature of some bastards. And I guess its just a imperfect system.

Sterling · Jul 30, 2024

Aside from how people feel about how close this is to the limited source material, this second season isn't as good as the first one was. And the first one wasn't exactly top tier. Better than LotR and WoT is not exactly a high hurdle.

Sylas · Jul 30, 2024

Sanrith Descartes said:
Look how close Roose Bolton kept Ramsay. It worked out great for Roose.

but I mean he didn't keep him close.

Breakdown said:
I mean, Ramsay, Jon Snow, Eldric Storm (Roberts son), all 8 of the proper sand snakes, are 1/3 of the books we have read.

it always confused me. Jon Snow is the son (in theory) of the warden of the north and a riverlands bar wench. Yet he was raised as highborn bastard. and no one but Cat really questioned it. We all know why now.

Same with Ramsay. But yeah you make fair points about the high born nature of some bastards. And I guess its just a imperfect system.

Ramsey Snow is the product of a violent rape, Roose Bolton found out a commoner, a miller iirc, dared to marry his wife without informing roose so that he could have the right of First Night (Prima Nocta) so he hanged the miller and raped the wife. She came after him years afterwards with his bastard but he didn't want anything to do with him. It was Roose's son and heir (dominick i think, something like that) who decided to reach out to his "half brother" and befriend him, and Ramsey ended up killing him, forcing Roose into a position of his bastard being his only heir.

Edric Storm was the bastard of Robert Baraetheon and Delena Florent, a high born lady and cousin to Selyse Florent (Stannis' Wife). Robert bedded her in Stannis' bed on their fucking wedding night while drunk from the wedding, which dishonored Stannis (he and his wife blamed this event on why she could never produce a male heir). Edric was sent to foster with Renly in Storm's End because he was a highborn bastard of two nobles. This is also why its no surprise Stannis was willing to sacrifice Edric for the blood rituals (well, Gendry in the show)

Jon Snow, yeah we know that story.

Locnar · Jul 30, 2024

I don't get the ecology of Dragons in this world. So most of them live on this tiny ass island? If they so freely roasted a bunch of people in their own "home" , what stops them from just randomly roasting people walking on the beach in dragonstone, going for a swim, fishing boats, kindergardeners on field trips, etc.etc.etc.?

Why have a bunch of them not flown off and started dragon colonies around the world? Supposedly there are a few "wild" ones, why only a few?

Breakdown · Jul 30, 2024

Locnar said:
I don't get the ecology of Dragons in this world. So most of them live on this tiny ass island? If they so freely roasted a bunch of people in their own "home" , what stops them from just randomly roasting people walking on the beach in dragonstone, going for a swim, fishing boats, kindergardeners on field trips, etc.etc.etc.?

Why have a bunch of them not flown off and started dragon colonies around the world? Supposedly there are a few "wild" ones, why only a few?

Why doesnt my 80 pound labrador run off and found a dog colony.

VBecause from birth she learned to listen to a select few, and we feed her.

Ossoi · Jul 31, 2024

Locnar said:
.?

Why have a bunch of them not flown off and started dragon colonies around the world? Supposedly there are a few "wild" ones, why only a few?

Ep s5e01 of GOT mentions Drogon has not been seen for weeks/months after he killed a kid and Dany locked up the other two at end of s4. Isn't that the main plot point of her storyline in s5 - that he returns to save her in the stadium or whatever

Sylas · Jul 31, 2024

Locnar said:
I don't get the ecology of Dragons in this world. So most of them live on this tiny ass island? If they so freely roasted a bunch of people in their own "home" , what stops them from just randomly roasting people walking on the beach in dragonstone, going for a swim, fishing boats, kindergardeners on field trips, etc.etc.etc.?

Why have a bunch of them not flown off and started dragon colonies around the world? Supposedly there are a few "wild" ones, why only a few?

The weirdest thing about their ecology is that they lay eggs the size of cantaloupes yet they are the size of 747s. Size wise it's like if human babies were blackheads that came out of your pores.

They don't run off to make colonies because throughout the ~250 year history of dragons in westeros there has only ever been 4 mated pairs across 3 generations of dragons and they were all bonded to riders. Vhagar is literally the grand mother to every dragon alive, Balerion is their grandfather and he died a few decades before this show's timeline. They have such ridiculously long lifespans that its barely been a single dragon lifetime from their arrival in westeros until they are all killed off (what this show is about)

Also none of the wild dragons were female. Plus Cannibal the wild dragon who is nearly as old as Balerion, eats most of the eggs or hatchlings that are not taken care of so the Targaryans begin collecting all the dragon eggs and storing them, but without heat they don't incubate, they turn to stone.

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House of the Dragon

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