Indiana...Religious Freedom eh? *sigh*

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Furry

🌭🍔🇺🇦✌️SLAVA UKRAINI!✌️🇺🇦🍔🌭
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So you believe that government isn't in the business of making people play nice.
I believe the government is mediator between when personal rights overlap. It's a subject I can elaborate on greatly if you are truly interested.

But in fact that is one of the foundational theories behind government, going all the way back to Plato and the Republic; there are those for whom it is naturally good to inflict injustice on others with impunity, and it is naturally bad to suffer injustice without redress, so the point of government is we submit to an authority that supposedly will check the ability of others to do injustice to us, at the cost of our ability to inflict injustice on others.

But let's say that government isn't in the business of making people play nice. It is still in the business of ensuring that all of the citizens who dwell under its auspices are able to fully enjoy in and participate in the society which they create and support. All people who are Americans should be fully free to participate in the social, political, and economic life of the country, and it is the duty of the country to make that so. If the government is shirking that duty, what redress is there?

At the end of the day, there is a price for citizenship and all of the benefits and privileges it affords.
It's interesting you bring up the republic. It's been a long ass time since I read it- but my memory should be fresh enough to argue about it with you. One of the concepts that was struggled with the most early in the book was the simple fact that justice comes in many sources and ideologies, and justice can be used to inflict harm on people or even societies. How then do you determine if justice is good or bad for a society as a whole, when those who do it believe it is right? The answer that socratese came to is self serving at best- the truly just are the philosophers, but the reason he came to it is logically sound.

Justice is found when you can separate what is good from your point of view from what is good for society. A truly just man is one who does the right thing for everyone because it is the right thing to do for everyone, but people often argued, is such a society even possible? What happened with hitler and germany and Hitler was -exactly- the scenario that was predicted in the republic. A charismatic leader emerges wielding justice in a way that serves himself and appears to serve society. People place too much faith in them, and democracy quickly breaks down into tyranny while many people think they are doing the right thing- it aligned perfectly with what they believed.

So we come back to modern day. Yes, christians have systematically persecuted gays and other people for a long time, yes a lot of people think the right thing to do is to answer that prejudice with an equal amount of prejudice back. I say this as a gay man in the south- I WILL NOT support a vengeful ideology where people's freedoms are taken away to suit my offensibility just because my group is now in the majority's will. My right to feel accepted is not higher, not more important than their right to be free- to think and say what they want. If they hate gays or whatever group, I will simply tell them that I disagree with them, argue with them WHY I disagree with them, but I strongly think the approach that goes against this law is extremely un-american, un civil, and I do not support laws or policies based around the concept of retribution.

The difference is huge. I am for removing all laws that discriminate against minority groups, because I think the government should be required not to discriminate or offend. That essentially, it should be a neutral arbitrator at all times. On the flip side, whenever you force people to do stuff, you ARE discriminating and oppressing them. As much as I think the government itself should be a neutral arbitrator, you can not take that stance when the government is used as a weapon to eliminate people's opinions or views.
 

Lanx

<Prior Amod>
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Is anyone ignoring the simple fact that Gay ppl should be serviced by other Gays for their wedding? It just makes sense b/c Gays have specific needs, they probably would need a Gay DJ to play the village ppl, 18x a night or whatever.

I'm asian, my wife is asian. Our final 2 for the venue was a nice traditional "white" wedding hall or an asian hotel with the best food.

Our DJ, MC had to be asian, we're not gonna find no white guy to ask old asians to get on the dance floor.

Our final 2 cake was between 3layer green tea white fondont cake made by an asian girl or a 3layer, 7chocolate square cake made by some tatted up white girl.

The asians knew what we wanted, the white ppl offered the best they could, but it wasn't us, even tho we didn't want an asian wedding. (our theme was modern, no red this, red that, gaudy asian wedding music that we've seen 100x)

So really, Gays should be serviced by Gays, it just makes sense.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Blacks should be serviced by Blacks, it just makes sense.

Jews should be serviced by Jews, it just makes sense.
 

Asshat wormie

2023 Asshat Award Winner
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Is anyone ignoring the simple fact that Gay ppl should be serviced by other Gays for their wedding? It just makes sense b/c Gays have specific needs, they probably would need a Gay DJ to play the village ppl, 18x a night or whatever.

I'm asian, my wife is asian. Our final 2 for the venue was a nice traditional "white" wedding hall or an asian hotel with the best food.

Our DJ, MC had to be asian, we're not gonna find no white guy to ask old asians to get on the dance floor.

Our final 2 cake was between 3layer green tea white fondont cake made by an asian girl or a 3layer, 7chocolate square cake made by some tatted up white girl.

The asians knew what we wanted, the white ppl offered the best they could, but it wasn't us, even tho we didn't want an asian wedding. (our theme was modern, no red this, red that, gaudy asian wedding music that we've seen 100x)

So really, Gays should be serviced by Gays, it just makes sense.
Pass the bong please.
 

AngryGerbil

Poet Warrior
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This revolution... way too stupid for even North Carolina to throw their young men at.
Am I the only one who is totally okay with this thing being referred to as 'too dumb to worry about'? You think it's dumb? By all means feel free to step out of the way, while us bad guys change a few laws. Thank you for your cooperation Governor McCroy.
smile.png
 

Hoss

Make America's Team Great Again
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Just so I have this straight (pun intended), the problem you guys have with the indiana law is that it would protect businesses from civil suits? That's what I thought I was reading, but I don't see it in the law. The only other thing I can see would be if you thought this state law somehow trumped the US Constitution.
 

hodj

Vox Populi Jihadi
<Silver Donator>
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Remember when tad accused me of being a double top secret decoder ring racist because I said that these laws create useless and unnecessary divisions in society based on arbitrary distinctions such that blacks would only serve blacks, whites whites, gays gays etc?

And here we have land confirming my point from ten plus pages back.
 

Royal

Connoisseur of Exotic Pictures
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nope.

The couple wanted to celebrate their love with a commitment ceremony in April. Mike called 111 Cakery downtown to order a cake.

"[The owner] said, 'We don't do that. If I can help you with anything else, but we don't discriminate.' That was the end of it," he said.

Same-sex couple denied cake by bakery, owners speak out | Fox 59

since the bakery is located in the heart of gay town, you can't fault the gays.
That's not the cake of ill-repute to the fundies.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Question: Let's say you're a baker and bake a simple chocolate cake with no lettering. What if someone came to your store and said, "I need this cake to celebrate my commitment to Satan." or, "I need this cake to commemorate pooping in people's chimneys." or, "I want to use this cake for a party hosted by my club called "Keyboard is for turning and mice are for clicking abilities".

Wouldn't you feel a certain apprehension about supplying a cake for that? Cake is cake, but wouldn't you feel like you'd be a part of it and supporting it?
Is anyone ignoring the simple fact that Gay ppl should be serviced by other Gays for their wedding?
wut.
 

Kuriin

Just a Nurse
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Is anyone ignoring the simple fact that Gay ppl should be serviced by other Gays for their wedding? It just makes sense b/c Gays have specific needs, they probably would need a Gay DJ to play the village ppl, 18x a night or whatever.

I'm asian, my wife is asian. Our final 2 for the venue was a nice traditional "white" wedding hall or an asian hotel with the best food.

Our DJ, MC had to be asian, we're not gonna find no white guy to ask old asians to get on the dance floor.

Our final 2 cake was between 3layer green tea white fondont cake made by an asian girl or a 3layer, 7chocolate square cake made by some tatted up white girl.

The asians knew what we wanted, the white ppl offered the best they could, but it wasn't us, even tho we didn't want an asian wedding. (our theme was modern, no red this, red that, gaudy asian wedding music that we've seen 100x)

So really, Gays should be serviced by Gays, it just makes sense.
Yes, we already knew that Asians are the best self-segregators in the world. No need to further make that point.
 

Chukzombi

Millie's Staff Member
73,147
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Blacks should be serviced by Blacks, it just makes sense.

Jews should be serviced by Jews, it just makes sense.
you're kidding, but it does make sense. have you ever had a jewish rye bread made by a non jewish bakery? its an offense almost as egregious as the holocaust. one time i went to my local pizzeria for a slice, only to discover that the italian mom and pop place was sold to a hindu buyer and when i asked for a slice of pizza, it tasted like cardboard and curry. 20+ years later and still the worst piece of pizza i ever had.
 

AngryGerbil

Poet Warrior
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Wouldn't you feel a certain apprehension about supplying a cake for that? Cake is cake, but wouldn't you feel like you'd be a part of it and supporting it?
It shouldn't matter. If they say something like, "I can't wait to eat this cake after I kill Mandy", you have a moral obligation of goodness to mankind to call the cops.

But if no actual threats are made; and you don't feel as though they have said anything that could be deemed threatening or harmful to anyone, including yourself; and people are just being really weird and not being harmful, then you have to sell the cake and get on with life.
 

Vinen

God is dead
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Is anyone ignoring the simple fact that Gay ppl should be serviced by other Gays for their wedding? It just makes sense b/c Gays have specific needs, they probably would need a Gay DJ to play the village ppl, 18x a night or whatever.

I'm asian, my wife is asian. Our final 2 for the venue was a nice traditional "white" wedding hall or an asian hotel with the best food.

Our DJ, MC had to be asian, we're not gonna find no white guy to ask old asians to get on the dance floor.

Our final 2 cake was between 3layer green tea white fondont cake made by an asian girl or a 3layer, 7chocolate square cake made by some tatted up white girl.

The asians knew what we wanted, the white ppl offered the best they could, but it wasn't us, even tho we didn't want an asian wedding. (our theme was modern, no red this, red that, gaudy asian wedding music that we've seen 100x)

So really, Gays should be serviced by Gays, it just makes sense.
My wife is a Chinese Native (That said, she is Shanghaise which is sorta like a Chinese High Elf). Her parents and friends (Also native) danced and enjoyed our wedding just fine.

Our DJ was as white as it comes.
 

Malakriss

Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Most people are smart enough not to tell the baker "I'm going to smear this all over my lover's body and eat it out of her ass". But more and more people these days will not only upload the video afterwards but tell the clerk beforehand as if it's a badge of honor.
 

Merrith

Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Question: Let's say you're a baker and bake a simple chocolate cake with no lettering. What if someone came to your store and said, "I need this cake to celebrate my commitment to Satan." or, "I need this cake to commemorate pooping in people's chimneys." or, "I want to use this cake for a party hosted by my club called "Keyboard is for turning and mice are for clicking abilities".
They're buying food. If someone said they were going to use the cake to cause someone to choke to death, I'd have an issue with it.

But hey, if we're going to worry about people eating food at bad things, how would gun owners live with themselves when they sel...Oh. Shit.
 

Merrith

Golden Baronet of the Realm
18,595
7,224
Remember when tad accused me of being a double top secret decoder ring racist because I said that these laws create useless and unnecessary divisions in society based on arbitrary distinctions such that blacks would only serve blacks, whites whites, gays gays etc?

And here we have land confirming my point from ten plus pages back.
I'm sure tad will be all over this guy.
 

Lanx

<Prior Amod>
66,123
150,690
you're kidding, but it does make sense. have you ever had a jewish rye bread made by a non jewish bakery? its an offense almost as egregious as the holocaust. one time i went to my local pizzeria for a slice, only to discover that the italian mom and pop place was sold to a hindu buyer and when i asked for a slice of pizza, it tasted like cardboard and curry. 20+ years later and still the worst piece of pizza i ever had.
Black ppl can't goto no vidal sasoon to get a nice perm, they wouldn't know wtf to do with black hair, Black ppl have to goto the ppl from the Barbershop movie. Hell i can't even goto a vidal sasoon, for some reason in my business district theres a salon on every block, i can't get my hair cut there, White ppl can't cut asian hair. I have to drive 30mins to my gay asian barber.