Indiana...Religious Freedom eh? *sigh*

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Hoss

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I never once made the argument that "These laws will put an end to discrimination in our society".

That's so asinine it isn't even worth addressing, Hoss.
An end to discrimination? I'll assume that was a typo and carry on. If it wasn't, then *lol buy a dictionary*.

See, here's the problem with that premise.

The things we're "imaging" this law might lead to....already happened once in this nation's history, for close to a century, following the end of the Civil War and the end of slavery.

The things you're imagining might happen are, at best, a strawman non sequitor that has no historical basis.
Then what did you mean by this if you weren't saying that the results you were imagining from this law would be a return to discrimination on a wide scale basis? What had already happened once in our nation's history right after the civil war?

What pray tell were you talking about if not discrimination?

I tried to ask for specifics on what problems you guys had with the law. Was it civil cases, or was it something else. All I got in response was HERPA DERPA CIVIL RIGHTS RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE IT COULD HAPPEN THEREFORE IT WILL BECAUSE RETHUGLICANS!
 

hodj

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Hoss clearly has trouble comprehending the English language.

Hoss, my suggestion to you is to scroll back a few pages, read the Atlantic article Draegan posted, and then realize that your attempts to play dishonest and disingenuous semantics games simply isn't going to fly with me.

You play this obtuse act like you can't understand basic language. You tried it with evolution in relation to the mudskipper, and you're playing it here.

I'm simply not up for your dishonest games. You aren't smart, it isn't funny.

If you can't see how giving business owners a blanket right to refuse service to people based on characteristics such as race, gender, class, sexual orientation, etc. you are allowing discrimination to run rampant in our society, dividing it uselessly along arbitrary and unnecessary lines.

Its clear that you realize you have no leg to stand on here, its been pointed out to you repeatedly. There are no ambiguous statements by me on this issue, and no matter how much you try to generate one out of whole cloth, that ship ain't sailing.

Your argument is literally analogous to sitting here in 1963 and claiming that discrimination against blacks can't happen because they aren't a protected class, and that therefore laws to protect them from segregation and discrimination by business owners are unnecessary.

Its silly. Stop being silly.
 

Furry

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I think I fairly well layed out why you are wrong in that post hodj. I'd like to see your argument against that method of thinking.

I think the civil rights act was okay in some regards specifically because it was the government itself that discriminated against blacks. I am all for removing government discrimination against people in all forms. You've failed to establish how this law contributes to governmental discrimination in any way, though. It's a connection you have to make to say the law is unjust.
 

Xevy

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Guys not to ruin your time arguing about... stuff. They ammended it to prevent discrimination on sexual preference or gender identity. So.... carry on.
 

hodj

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If you think the Civil Rights Act only impacted government discrimination, you need to go reread a history book. Its that simple. The act covered segregation in business dealings, in government dealings, etc.

The article Draegan posted several pages ago already covered this.

Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act Allows Private Businesses to Discriminate Against Employees Based on Sexual Orientation ??" The Atlantic

No one, I think, would ever have denied that Maurice Bessinger was a man of faith.

And he wasn't particularly a "still, small voice" man either; he wanted everybody in earshot to know that slavery had been God's will, that desegregation was Satan's work, and the federal government was the Antichrist. God wanted only whites to eat at Bessinger's six Piggie Park barbecue joints; so His servant Maurice took that fight all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, which in 1968 decided that his religious freedom argument was "patently frivolous."

Until the day he died, however, Bessinger insisted that he and God were right. His last fight was to preserve the Confederate flag as a symbol of South Carolina. "I want to be known as a hard-working, Christian man that loves God and wants to further (God's) work throughout the world as I have been doing throughout the last 25 years," he told his hometown newspaper in 2000.

Growing up in the pre-civil-rights South, I knew a lot of folks like Maurice Bessinger. I didn't like them much, but I didn't doubt their sincerity. Why wouldn't they believe racism was God's will? We white Southerners heard that message on weekends from the pulpit, on school days from our segregated schools, and every day from our governments. When Richard and Mildred Loving left Virginia to be married, a state trial judge convicted them of violating the Racial Integrity Act. That judge wrote that "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents . The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

That's a good background against which to measure the uproar about the Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which was signed into law by Governor Mike Pence last week. I don't question the religious sincerity of anyone involved in drafting and passing this law. But sincere and faithful people, when they feel the imprimatur of both the law and the Lord, can do very ugly things.

There's a factual dispute about the new Indiana law. It is called a "Religious Freedom Restoration Act," like the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, passed in 1993.* Thus a number of its defenders have claimed it is really the same law. Here, for example, is the Weekly Standard's John McCormack: "Is there any difference between Indiana's law and the federal law? Nothing significant." I am not sure what McCormack was thinking; but even my old employer, The Washington Post, seems to believe that if a law has a similar title as another law, they must be identical. "Indiana is actually soon to be just one of 20 states with a version of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or RFRA," the Post's Hunter Schwarz wrote, linking to this map created by the National Conference of State Legislatures.

The problem with this statement is that, well, it's false. That becomes clear when you read and compare those tedious state statutes. If you do that, you will find that the Indiana statute has two features the federal RFRA-and most state RFRAs-do not. First, the Indiana law explicitly allows any for-profit business to assert a right to "the free exercise of religion." The federal RFRA doesn't contain such language, and neither does any of the state RFRAs except South Carolina's; in fact, Louisiana and Pennsylvania, explicitly exclude for-profit businesses from the protection of their RFRAs.

The new Indiana statute also contains this odd language: "A person whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened, by a violation of this chapter may assert the violation or impending violation as a claim or defense in a judicial or administrative proceeding, regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity is a party to the proceeding." (My italics.) Neither the federal RFRA, nor 18 of the 19 state statutes cited by the Post, says anything like this; only the Texas RFRA, passed in 1999, contains similar language.

What these words mean is, first, that the Indiana statute explicitly recognizes that a for-profit corporation has "free exercise" rights matching those of individuals or churches. A lot of legal thinkers thought that idea was outlandish until last year's decision in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, in which the Court's five conservatives interpreted the federal RFRA to give some corporate employers a religious veto over their employees' statutory right to contraceptive coverage.

Second, the Indiana statute explicitly makes a business's "free exercise" right a defense against a private lawsuit by another person, rather than simply against actions brought by government. Why does this matter? Well, there's a lot of evidence that the new wave of "religious freedom" legislation was impelled, at least in part, by a panic over a New Mexico state-court decision, Elane Photography v. Willock. In that case, a same-sex couple sued a professional photography studio that refused to photograph the couple's wedding. New Mexico law bars discrimination in "public accommodations" on the basis of sexual orientation. The studio said that New Mexico's RFRA nonetheless barred the suit; but the state's Supreme Court held that the RFRA did not apply "because the government is not a party."

Remarkably enough, soon after, language found its way into the Indiana statute to make sure that no Indiana court could ever make a similar decision. Democrats also offered the Republican legislative majority a chance to amend the new act to say that it did not permit businesses to discriminate; they voted that amendment down.

So, let's review the evidence: by the Weekly Standard's definition, there's "nothing significant" about this law that differs from the federal one, and other state ones-except that it has been carefully written to make clear that 1) businesses can use it against 2) civil-rights suits brought by individuals.

Of all the state "religious freedom" laws I have read, this new statute hints most strongly that it is there to be used as a means of excluding gays and same-sex couples from accessing employment, housing, and public accommodations on the same terms as other people. True, there is no actual language that says, All businesses wishing to discriminate in employment, housing, and public accommodations on the basis of sexual orientation, please check this "religious objection" box. But, as Henry David Thoreau once wrote, "Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk."

So-is the fuss over the Indiana law overblown?

No.

The statute shows every sign of having been carefully designed to put new obstacles in the path of equality; and it has been publicly sold with deceptive claims that it is "nothing new."

Being required to serve those we dislike is a painful price to pay for the privilege of running a business; but the pain exclusion inflicts on its victims, and on society, are far worse than the discomfort the faithful may suffer at having to open their businesses to all.

As the story of Maurice Bessinger shows us, even dressed in liturgical garments, hateful discrimination is still a pig.
Guys not to ruin your time arguing about... stuff. They ammended it to prevent discrimination on sexual preference or gender identity. So.... carry on.
They're talking about amending it, but I wasn't aware they had already written the amendment, and passed it, and it was signed into law by the governor of the state of Indiana.
 

hodj

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That's a huge block of text to completely ignore my argument. I'll return the favor.
K. Dishonest dissembler demanding I defend a point of view so obvious its plain on its face getting mad when he can't rebut the evidence detected.
 

Gavinmad

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Just because the far right is being retarded on this, you don't have to try and top them by claiming they are as bad as muslimextremistsof all things.
It's really a first world vs third world issue, and it's all relative. The far right here is every bit as extreme as ISIS is in the middle east, but there it takes the form of beheadings and suicide bombings, whereas here in the first world it's mostly expressed in politics.
 

khalid

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You've failed to establish how this law contributes to governmental discrimination in any way, though. It's a connection you have to make to say the law is unjust.
No one is required to prove the law contributes to governmental discrimination to say it is unjust or wrong. If it contributes to private discrimination or gives any cover to private discrimination (in fact, that is its entire purpose), that is enough.
 

khalid

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It's really a first world vs third world issue, and it's all relative. The far right here is every bit as extreme as ISIS is in the middle east, but there it takes the form of beheadings and suicide bombings, whereas here in the first world it's mostly expressed in politics.
Sure, but that huge progress.
 

Phazael

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Yes and all individuals have that right. It's government that does not, in specific enumerated cases.

What power was granted to the state to force people to be nice to each other?
Actually agree here, but any public business that operates under the law still needs to be free from discrimination. On private property? No one has rights to make you be nice. Plus, in a business setting, you can always just give shitty customer service to whomever.
 

Furry

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No one is required to prove the law contributes to governmental discrimination to say it is unjust or wrong. If it contributes to private discrimination or gives any cover to private discrimination (in fact, that is its entire purpose), that is enough.
What makes the freedom to express yourself as gay greater than the freedom to express your hatred for gays? One form of discrimination is not better than the other. Just because I agree more with the first expression does not make it more morally correct than the second one. Protecting hateful and offensive speech is a foundation of free speech. The government has a duty to be non-discriminatory, levying that duty on private citizens is at best oppression, and at worst tyranny.

Take the KKK, I do not like the organization. But I will defend its right to exist to the very end. I do not agree with laws for a second that oppress the freedom of people in their private action, however gross or terrible their expression of freedom might be to me.
 

hodj

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What makes the freedom to express yourself as black greater than the freedom to express your hatred for blacks?
And that is the answer to your question.

One form of discrimination is not better than the other.
Not wanting to be discriminated against = the same as discriminating against others in Furry's universe.

The fact that you don't see what you just did there is sad as shit.

If people were here arguing that gays should be able to discriminate against non gays, that would be the equivalent. That's not what's happening.

You have the right to dislike gays. You don't have the right to discriminate against them in business dealings.

Protecting hateful and offensive speech is a foundation of free speech.
Discriminating against people in business dealings isn't "Free speach".
 

khalid

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What makes the freedom to express yourself as gay greater than the freedom to express your hatred for gays? One form of discrimination is not better than the other.
Yikes...

1) The "freedom to express yourself as gay" is not discrimination of any sort.

2) Being gay is not an expression of someone's freedom of speech, it is just who they are.

Glad to know you support freedom of speech, too bad you don't seem to know what freedom of speech is.
 

BoldW

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Hai guys, it's 2015. If you're running a business that services the public, you don't have a right to discriminate. Especially if you think it's because a Sky Wizard wants you to. If you operate a Wedding Cake Business, you make Wedding Cakes. WTF kind of business model turns down totally fine business like that, especially considering gay demographics probably pay more, bitch less, and bring in more referral business than straights. No one is forcing you to go to the wedding and talk about Rim Jobs with Kuriin, but make the fucking cake.
Personally, I'd be taking my woman to that wedding and having her talk to Kuriin about the joys of giving Rim Jobs, taking up the rear, and all sorts of Urban-Dictionary stuff I've never heard of. I'd also get myself into the Guinness book of records for baking the biggest Cock-Cake ever.

Was Hoss seriously trying to play word games with civil rights vs. civil rights laws as if they were the same?
 

hodj

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Same site

RFRA fix does not widely extend discrimination protections for LGBT, experts say

The changes to the state's embattled "religious freedom" bill would only offer anti-discrimination protections for gays and lesbians in 11 Indiana communities where such protections already exist, legal experts say.

The amendment, which Gov. Mike Pence signed Thursday, would prevent Christian bakers, florists and other similar businesses from denying services to same-sex couples who are seeking to get married. But only in communities, such as Indianapolis and Bloomington, that already have local ordinances that prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, legal experts on both sides of the debate agree.

In the rest of Indiana, discrimination against gays and lesbians still is not expressly prohibited, said Daniel Conkle, a professor at Indiana University Maurer School of Law.

"The law still has a gap in Indiana in that we do not have, even with this amendment, a statewide protection for gays and lesbians," Conkle said. "It does not itself prohibit a statewide discrimination based on sexual orientation."

What the law does is ensure that religious objections protected under Indiana's Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or RFRA, cannot be used as a defense in a discrimination lawsuit in communities that already have local human rights ordinances, experts say.

Camilla Taylor, counsel for Lambda Legal, an LGBT legal organization, said the law doesn't really add any protections.

Taylor said all the "fix" did was eliminate a provision in the original law that would have over-ridden local anti-discrimination ordinances that included protections based on sexual orientation and gender identity. The status quo remains in the rest of the state, where discrimination against gays and lesbians is not expressly prohibited because they are not covered by statewide civil rights protections.

Fixes to the law, which were hashed out in private meetings Wednesday between the state's top Republican lawmakers and business leaders, mark the first time that "sexual orientation" and "gender identity" are explicitly protected in state law in the context of anti-discrimination.

The Indiana House and Senate approved the amendment Thursday. Pence signed it shortly thereafter.

The amendment prohibits a person, an organization or a business from refusing to provide goods, services, employment or housing to someone based on race, color, religion, ancestry, age, national origin, disability, sex, sexual orientation and gender identity.

It exempts churches, nonprofit religious organizations and affiliated schools, as well as rabbis, priests, preachers, ministers and pastors.

Because of those exemptions, Taylor said it's still possible for religious groups to use RFRA as a defense for discriminating against gays and lesbians, even in those communities where local protections exist. For instance, a pastor would not be required to perform a gay wedding if he raised religious objections.

Negative reactions about RFRA snowballed after Pence signed it last week. Changes to the law were driven by a national backlash that threatened to paint Indiana as a place that discriminates against gays and lesbians and ruin its reputation as a welcoming and hospitable state.

Still, the change leaves some social conservatives unhappy because in communities with discrimination protections for gays and lesbians Christian bakers and florists likely would have to provide services for same-sex weddings. Backers of RFRA asked Pence to veto the changes and called them an attempt to destroy religious protections in the state.

The changes also fall short of satisfying civil rights advocates and some legal scholars.

While experts agree that the inclusion of sexual orientation and gender identity in state law is historic, they also believe it's only the first step, a short-term fix, in quelling the national firestorm that Indiana has been catapulted into. Some who oppose RFRA say lawmakers fell short by failing to make LGBT Hoosiers a protected class of citizens.

"This self-inflicted crisis will not end until the Indiana Civil Rights Act is amended to ban discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity," said Robert Katz, a professor at Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law.

Jennifer Drobac, another McKinney law professor, believes there's hope that change will come.

"The power elites in Indiana now understand that people are watching," she said. "And it's a message to the rest of the nation that most Hoosiers are friendly, welcoming people, and they will not stand by while discriminatory lawmakers and power brokers try to hijack our state."

But for now, amending the state's Civil Rights Act is a fight for another day, Conkle said. The RFRA changes, he added, keeps intact the legislation's main goal of protecting minority religions.

RFRA, or Senate Bill 101, prohibits the government from substantially burdening a person's ability to practice his or her religion - unless the government can show it has a compelling interest to do so. And the government must choose the least restrictive way to achieve its goal.

The changes also are sufficient to calm the storm that has existed in Indiana over the past week, Conkle said.

"I would hope that in the future," he said, "perhaps when times are a bit calmer, the legislature might revisit the issue (of statewide LBGT protection)."
Was Hoss seriously trying to play word games with civil rights vs. civil rights laws as if they were the same?
Yeah pretty much.