Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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I would beat any child who didn't quickly break the habit of saying 'mines'
Justice for Zimmerman
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
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hodj
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No, its not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African...acular_English
A subsection dialect of English is not a language. Its a dialect.
hodj
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I'm pretty sure I just did argue that dialects are not fully fleshed out languages, and they aren't.
Every definition seems to support this conclusion
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialect
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/language
Every definition seems to support this conclusion
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialect
Seems to indicate a subspecies within an overarching language. Creoles aren't "languages". Languages imply structure and rules, and are umbrellas within various subsets lie. Dialects, creoles, etc. imply locally applied versions. To call it a fully fleshed out language waters down the term language to uselessness
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/language
Seems to me that what's happening here is the bar is being lowered for political reasons. Logic dictates that something which is a subset of another thing cannot be that thing, such as all communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists, which is provable syllogistically. It would require black vernacular to be far more broadly accepted, formalized, with widely accepted structures. Ebonics has little to none of this.
fanaskin
Well known agitator
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citation needed
Wikipedia say this
"There is no universally accepted criterion for distinguishing a language from a dialect. A number of rough measures exist, sometimes leading to contradictory results"
it's probably A nonstandard dialect, like a standard dialect, has a complete vocabulary, grammar, and syntax, but is not the beneficiary of institutional support.
still would recommend you learn fluent English, it will help you get a job.
How about the philosophical question, why does this dialect exist? i'm sure there where many slave dialects, is it an automatic assumption that a dialect is a good thing? wouldn't that be more of a sign of social segregation? Ideally we want black and white people to integrate correct? how does a separate dialect help those ends? We have enough trouble with southern and northern dialect as it is. Italy it's the same thing the north and the south almost speak a different language, and they have contempt for one another. If I was that girls father I'd have made sure she got the under bite fixed, could read cursive and spoke the language well.
khalid
Unelected Mod
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My issue with calling Ebonics a language is it seems to validate the use of it as a replacement of English. The problem is that those that learn to speak in Ebonics are directly making their own life harder. They will have huge troubles in job interviews, they will get into more trouble with cops, they will have trouble in courtrooms, etc. It self segregates themselves away from the rest of society.
Borzak
Bronze Baron of the Realm
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I don't care how you speak, that you can't read or write, or even what you wear. But don't bitch to no end that you can't get a job because you can't read and write well enough to work at the drive-thru. Pretty simple as that. Outside of possibly the rap music business there's no business you are going to make real money talking like that.
hodj
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No, once a dialect becomes broadly accepted by a large community and separates itself from the mother language, then it may become a language. Much like a subspecies, when separated geographically from its home population for an extended period of time will eventually become a new species.
There's no way Ebonics is remotely close to that point though.
fanaskin
Well known agitator
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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/enter...osby_7-15.html
RAY SUAREZ: Entertainer Bill Cosby is known for making people laugh. But this summer, he's been at the center of controversy for his tough talk aimed at some in black America, most recently at a Rainbow-Push Coalition dinner in Chicago earlier this month, where he criticized some black men.
BILL COSBY: (July 1) You young men and old men, you've got to stop beating up your women because you can't find a job, because you didn't want to get an education.
RAY SUAREZ: Speaking to the mostly black audience, Cosby disparaged the casual use of racial slurs by African American entertainers.
BILL COSBY: When you put on a record and that record is yelling - (bleep) this- and (bleep) that, and you've got your six- or seven- year-old sitting in the backseat of the car, those children hear that.
RAY SUAREZ: And he said too many black parents are avoiding personal responsibility.
BILL COSBY: It is almost analgesic to talk about what the white man is doing against us. And it keeps a person frozen in their seat.
RAY SUAREZ: Cosby came under fire for those comments.
REP ELIJAH CUMMINGS: It gives a society with racist tendencies at times an excuse. "They're not doing for themselves" while so many African Americans are working very, very hard.
RAY SUAREZ: It was the second time in two months Cosby's remarks drew controversy. In May at Howard University, Cosby said this: "The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids -- $500 sneakers - for what? And won't spent $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.'" He further clarified those remarks on PBS' the Tavis Smiley Show in May.
BILL COSBY: What I'm saying here... and the mistake I made was in saying that there are people who are striving and working in the lower economic area. The people who are not holding up their end is quite obvious to me: And that happens to bethose people, to me, who don't have a clue of education-- learning standard English, math, and graduating from school-- what that has for them in terms of empowerment.
RAY SUAREZ: Entertainer Bill Cosby is known for making people laugh. But this summer, he's been at the center of controversy for his tough talk aimed at some in black America, most recently at a Rainbow-Push Coalition dinner in Chicago earlier this month, where he criticized some black men.
BILL COSBY: (July 1) You young men and old men, you've got to stop beating up your women because you can't find a job, because you didn't want to get an education.
RAY SUAREZ: Speaking to the mostly black audience, Cosby disparaged the casual use of racial slurs by African American entertainers.
BILL COSBY: When you put on a record and that record is yelling - (bleep) this- and (bleep) that, and you've got your six- or seven- year-old sitting in the backseat of the car, those children hear that.
RAY SUAREZ: And he said too many black parents are avoiding personal responsibility.
BILL COSBY: It is almost analgesic to talk about what the white man is doing against us. And it keeps a person frozen in their seat.
RAY SUAREZ: Cosby came under fire for those comments.
REP ELIJAH CUMMINGS: It gives a society with racist tendencies at times an excuse. "They're not doing for themselves" while so many African Americans are working very, very hard.
RAY SUAREZ: It was the second time in two months Cosby's remarks drew controversy. In May at Howard University, Cosby said this: "The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids -- $500 sneakers - for what? And won't spent $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.'" He further clarified those remarks on PBS' the Tavis Smiley Show in May.
BILL COSBY: What I'm saying here... and the mistake I made was in saying that there are people who are striving and working in the lower economic area. The people who are not holding up their end is quite obvious to me: And that happens to bethose people, to me, who don't have a clue of education-- learning standard English, math, and graduating from school-- what that has for them in terms of empowerment.
hodj
Vox Populi Jihadi
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Well you just admitted that the scientific definition is muddled intentionally because of political motivation.
So it sounds like the "scientific definition" has been....watered down to appease people. Which was what I said before
That isn't science, of course. Its social science, aka soft science, aka not replicable, not quantifiable, and mostly based on subjective perspective of the particular individual.
I'm gonna go with the classic definition of language, meaning a broadly accepted, formalized, systematic method of communication, rather than this politically correct dumbing down of concepts to please the social engineers amonst academia, if you don't mind.
Can we call it a draw or something and save all of us 5 more pages of arguing the definition of "language?"
fanaskin
Well known agitator
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The soft sciences have the most corruption.
Just before he left the presidency, Dwight Eisenhower famously cautioned the nation that "n the councils of government we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex."
In that same address, he offered a less heralded warning:
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.
Just before he left the presidency, Dwight Eisenhower famously cautioned the nation that "n the councils of government we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex."
In that same address, he offered a less heralded warning:
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.
iannis
Musty Nester
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I think JJ has gone senile. And I don't mean it in a hateful way or a dismissive way. I think the man has literally gone senile and can ONLY see today through the lens of what he was involved with as a younger man.
And I think he's been senile for a while.
Cosby on the other hand is still sharp enough and attentive to the present -- it's just that his speech is becoming less and less focused. That's also something that happens when people age. He's forgetting words.
And I think he's been senile for a while.
Cosby on the other hand is still sharp enough and attentive to the present -- it's just that his speech is becoming less and less focused. That's also something that happens when people age. He's forgetting words.
hodj
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That's fine, but Wikipedia was shown years ago to be very accurate in its science articles in particular, and this is an internet debate, so wikipedia is perfectly acceptable. We're not getting graded here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4530930.stm
Link to the original research report
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/438900a.html
I really think its pretty cheap and a bit of a cry baby tactic to complain someone cited Wikipedia in an internet debate, considering this fact.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4530930.stm
Link to the original research report
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/438900a.html
I really think its pretty cheap and a bit of a cry baby tactic to complain someone cited Wikipedia in an internet debate, considering this fact.
Tanoomba
ジョーディーすれいやー
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hodj
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Its not broadly accepted/utilized, not systematic, not formalized in any way, in fact I would say that even calling it black vernacular or ebonics gives it a sense of unity that doesn't exist. There is zero uniformity amongst the few population groups that actually employ it.
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