Justice for Zimmerman
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Tanoomba
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How is it not broadly accepted or utilized? There are whole communities that speak it almost exclusively.
By "not systematic", are you saying that there is too much variation that exists within what we would consider "Ebonics"? Hell, there is tremendous variation in "standard" English, too. I grew up in an Italian neighborhood in a French Canadian city. My version of English is different from yours in some (admittedly minor) ways. English can vary a lot from state to state, or even city to city, but they're all "English" just the same.
What do you mean "not formalized"? Do textbooks need to be written explaining grammatical and vocabulary features before a language is considered a language?
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I know it's just standard ME jargon but I thought it was pretty funny:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93962276/T...Martin-AutopsyShiping Bao_sl said:
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
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I think that you're missing the point of people's ire. It's not that Jeantel massacred what they consider English to be, that happens all the time and a lot of communities that aren't black do it. Visit the Benseonhurst, Jersey, Boston, Kentucky and you will find powerful accents that immediately give you a sense (Stereotype) of that person, or where they come from. The difference is, most people, not all, but most, from those communities, when they go into a place where they are clearly out of their home community, they typically feelself consciousabout their inability to reach an accent neutral state. They see their inability to speak with the same eloquence as those educated better than themselves as a drawback. I see this all the time in the corporate world. People who don't have a good grasp on "proper" English will take writing classes, or speech classes, or accent neutralization courses. Because they see their little idiosyncrasies as a disadvantage, because they recognize that the hegemony is different from their culture, and adaptation toitis far easier than asking it to adapt to toyouor your small subset.
And that is the difference, it's why so many people have gotten annoyed with the articles that have come out defending Jeantel. Because rather than point to her accent, speech, lack of education (ect) as disadvantages, which they clearly are in the world of the larger hegemony, they attempt to portray them asadvantages, or things she should be proud of. I'm sure everyone is proud of their heritage, I know I am. However, I would not go into a meeting and start speaking like I just got fired from the Jersey Shore--because, frankly, I both understand that it makes me look bad and I don't have the expectation that the vast majority of people should adapt to suit my particular habits.
As you said, true accent neutral is not a normal state. It takes work to get closer to it. And that's what a majority of educated people do, they subdue their accents (Not eliminate) because accent neutral is a kind of "agreed upon" middle ground for all the little cultures in the U.S. For someone (The reporters in those articles) to make the comment that Jeantel is being judged because everyone else is ignorant, is the epitome of hubris, and frankly ignorance itself. Everyone is judged by these standards. The difference is, some of us see a defect that needs to becorrected. While the people that support Jeantel see it as part of their culture that should berespected. I'm willing to bet, had you pointed those mistakes out to people, most likely they would have razzed you as a grammar nazi, but they wouldnothave said "Well, I feel that's the correct way to say it! Because it's my culture!".
I don't think anyone is just mad at her for being dumb. I think most people here will openly say that's a failure on our part, our education system. What people are angry at is she is PROUD of it. And the adults who are educated and should KNOW better, support that pride. (And I know some will stretch this into a systemic problem in black culture, where they idolize bad habits, I won't comment on that, because frankly I can't make a call beyond anecdotal observations. I'm just speaking about THIS case. The amount of pride swirling around Jeantel's "boldness" is deeply disturbing. I'd be, frankly, pissed if I heard a normal Italian praising Snooky for her "boldness" and what a "proud" Italian woman she was.)
Borzak
Bronze Baron of the Realm
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This weekend should be fun. The black panther party is organizing a rally in River Oaks in Houston. It's a very wealthy and white area where Bush Sr. lives (or did live). Now there's a counter protest set and the police chief weighed in and said he couldn't keep people with a concealed carry permit from counter protesting. Already this week the black panthers had their mini rally shut down by a bunch of bikers.
Let's move this away from any possible concept of racism for Americans and reframe it as an equivalent question:Is Scots a language or a dialect?
Here's the example from that page:
Slangy English with an accent, or a distinct language of its own?
Tanoomba
ジョーディーすれいやー
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I agree completely. Like I said, I don't think we should be teaching "Ebonics" in schools or accepting it as a valid alternative to "conventional" English. Whether it's fair or not, people who hear someone speaking like Jeantel will make assumptions about that person's intelligence. Speaking what many would consider to be a "lower" standard of English plagued with what we know to be mistakes, we assume they are operating on a mentally inferior level. Similarly, every time I read a moronic expressly racist comment on this thread, I make assumptions about that person's rationality and intelligence. Jeantelshouldwork on speaking "proper" English. It would absolutely help her in the long run. But it doesn't mean she's not currently communicating with her peers in a manner that is clear and understandable to them, which is the purpose of language after all.
Siliconemelons
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Most of our education problems boil down to accommodations - we have way-way too many of them in the school system. Eboncis has been pushed to have primary Ebonics speakers to have accommodations under ESOL. And in many places- it has failed to do so...so far... and yes one of the big deterrents of that is that it is not a language or dialect- so the debate has more impact than letting all our Jantel's go around saying their creol and ebonics are multilingual on their job apps (lulz)
Blackyce
Silver Knight of the Realm
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Blackyce
Silver Knight of the Realm
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Wait, so at 17 TM has tattoos?I know it's just standard ME jargon but I thought it was pretty funny:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93962276/T...Martin-Autopsy
What parent lets their kid get tattoos before they are 18?
hodj
Vox Populi Jihadi
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Exactly.
Because some inner city communities utilize it doesn't mean its broadly accepted or utilized, in fact its because it is entirely relegated to the poorest, most uneducated sectors of our society, and eschewed by the broad culture, that I say its not formalized or broadly accepted/utilized, which means its not a language. There are no governments who perform their duties in Ebonics. There is nowhere, on planet Earth, where Ebonics is used as the sole method of communication. There are no systematized formal methods for teaching someone to speak Ebonics. English is systematic and formalized. Despite there being many versions of it, there is one or two official versions of it which is taught globally. Ebonics shares none of these characteristics. No one can teach you how to speak Ebonics in such a manner that no matter what community of Ebonics speakers you interact with, they can comprehend what you are saying. There are no classes in China to teach Chinese people how to speak Ebonics. There are no classes in France to teach French people how to speak "Ebonics". If I wanted to take Swahili, I could, and I could go to Africa, and I could speak with some degree of reasonable understanding, virtually any Swahili based dialect in the continent. Ebonics. Shares. None. Of. These. Traits. Calling it a language is a politically motivated watering down of what the term language means. It is racist to call Ebonics a language, because its the same low expectations soft bigotry that you see from academics on these sorts of issues all the time.
You know that civilization used to be defined literally as "Having attained writing in your society". The problem was that meant no society in Africa south of the Sahara had civilization, because none of them had a written language. So the academics just dumbed it down, and said "Well you can have civilization, even without written language!" Same shit. Stop trying to lower the bar for everyone to make yourself feel better. They're capable of more, you just don't want to require or demand it of them.
Let me add just one more thing here. I live in Kentucky. There are shitloads of rednecks who talk like fucking retards too. Just because 1.2 million people may be able to speak Hillbilly doesn't make it a fucking language. "Y'all git on down yunder there and buy us some sodee pop and Mac Donalds." isn't a language anymore than "Y'all Wakandans done gotta go gets us sum Mac Donalds cheese burgers" is.
From that article
Dialect. It has no systematic formula, no one to teach it, its not broadly accepted, no governments use it as a primary language within which they conduct business, etc.
If the concept you want to call a language is going to be called a language, it needs to, at minimum, be utilized as a primary language by the majority of a population in a society. If you don't have that, you're not a language, you're a dialect. When less than 20% of Scots speak it, its not a language. Its a dialect.
Siliconemelons
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Even Dialect is iffy for ebonics- in a more modern take on things... look at China the languages there have a bunch of dialects that are closer to language 'rules/ideas' than ebonics or scots
Siliconemelons
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