Justice for Zimmerman

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chaos

chaos

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Tanoomba_sl said:
I'm just saying it's stupid to say "black people have to fix their own shit" from a position of privilege they've never known. Racism is real. It actually exists today. I don't think anyone would deny that. It also allows for the continuation of a societal system that favors some races over others. We need society-wide attitude changes to fix this broken system, not just herping "It's not my fault! Fix your own shit!"
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To me, this implies that everyone else (white people) is doing something that is "holding back" black people as a whole. That's just ridiculous. When people say they have to fix themselves, they are talking about their culture. Nobody's ethnic group had this mysterious privilege when they came here, and yet none of them are in quite the same situation that blacks are in. At some point that accusatory gaze has to turn back in on themselves and someone has to ask "What are we doing as a group to encourage our own downfall?" But I guess that's racist because I am so privileged, or something.
 
hodj

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I never understood porch monkeys because I know for a fact that a large proportion of my redneck ass Appalachian family spent huge amounts of time on their porches back before the television and air conditioning were things that both existed, and they could afford. I estimate from this anecdote that 99% of the white population were, in fact, porch monkeys prior to the advent of TV and HVAC.

chaos_sl said:
To me, this implies that everyone else (white people) is doing something that is "holding back" black people as a whole. That's just ridiculous. When people say they have to fix themselves, they are talking about their culture. Nobody's ethnic group had this mysterious privilege when they came here, and yet none of them are in quite the same situation that blacks are in. At some point that accusatory gaze has to turn back in on themselves and someone has to ask "What are we doing as a group to encourage our own downfall?" But I guess that's racist because I am so privileged, or something.
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You're just dripping with privilege, that'll be 12 Hail Malcolm's and a week's community service at the local homeless shelter.
 
Tanoomba

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Tuco_sl said:
Hypothetically

What if the problem isn't racism? What if whites accepting a terrible culture only worsens the problem?
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Well, the way I see it, saying "It's their problem"IS"accepting a terrible culture". Detaching yourself from a problem is accepting it. To be clear, racism is onlypartof the problem. But it's the part we have the greatest individual control over. And if more of us took responsibility for our own racism, this could lead to a shift in societal attitudes that would make it much easier for this "terrible culture" to phase itself out and "assimilate" with what we consider to be a more productive and culturally sound way of living.

I'm not saying to teach Ebonics in school. I'm not saying to play gangsta rap in shopping malls. I'm not saying to push more affirmative action programs. I'm saying that if you expect the worst from people, they will give you the worst. This is human nature (don't make me get that eye color video again). As long as we draw a line separating "us" from "them", we are (at best) just allowing the problem to get worse or (at worst) actually playing an active role in making things shittier.
 
iannis

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I don't really understand it either. Maybe it's because we'd all keep stills on our porch before prohibition... so it's a way of saying "all they ever do is sit around and home and stay drunk".

Really though I think it's just a way to call them monkeys. That's redneck wit.
 
chaos

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Tanoomba_sl said:
Well, the way I see it, saying "It's their problem"IS"accepting a terrible culture". Detaching yourself from a problem is accepting it. To be clear, racism is onlypartof the problem. But it's the part we have the greatest individual control over. And if more of us took responsibility for our own racism, this could lead to a shift in societal attitudes that would make it much easier for this "terrible culture" to phase itself out and "assimilate" with what we consider to be a more productive and culturally sound way of living.

I'm not saying to teach Ebonics in school. I'm not saying to play gangsta rap in shopping malls. I'm not saying to push more affirmative action programs. I'm saying that if you expect the worst from people, they will give you the worst. This is human nature (don't make me get that eye color video again). As long as we draw a line separating "us" from "them", we are (at best) just allowing the problem to get worse or (at worst) actually playing an active role in making things shittier.
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And here you're making an assumption that he, or anyone, DOES expect the worst from someone. I expect the best from everyone. Working i the military and now the government side of that, my entire professional career has been working with an inordinate number of black professionals compared to other fields or places of employment. THAT is what I expect, this bullshit thug culture is what I reject. And I wonder what active role you think a person outside of this culture could do to change it.
 
Tanoomba

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Cad_sl said:
I don't.

But if I did, I wouldn't expect everyone to act like he wasn't mentally challenged. He'd still have a good life because I'd give it to him, but not because he earned it.

P.S.
Did you just analogize black people to mentally challenged kids?
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So when your kid gets picked last for the soccer team and the kids say "It's not our fault you're retarded! If you don't like it, why don't you kill yourself?" how would you explain that to your son without being a hypocritical prick?

PS: Being black and being mentally challenged are both disadvantages granted at birth that the birthee has no control over. That is the extent to which they are being compared.
 
Cad

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Tanoomba_sl said:
Well, the way I see it, saying "It's their problem"IS"accepting a terrible culture". Detaching yourself from a problem is accepting it. To be clear, racism is onlypartof the problem. But it's the part we have the greatest individual control over. And if more of us took responsibility for our own racism, this could lead to a shift in societal attitudes that would make it much easier for this "terrible culture" to phase itself out and "assimilate" with what we consider to be a more productive and culturally sound way of living.

I'm not saying to teach Ebonics in school. I'm not saying to play gangsta rap in shopping malls. I'm not saying to push more affirmative action programs. I'm saying that if you expect the worst from people, they will give you the worst. This is human nature (don't make me get that eye color video again). As long as we draw a line separating "us" from "them", we are (at best) just allowing the problem to get worse or (at worst) actually playing an active role in making things shittier.
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You're skipping the motivation part. Why do we give a fuck? I don't hate black people, but I honestly don't give a fuck about them as a group any more than I give a fuck about white gay long-winded cornholing fucking assholes like you as a group. Why am I invested in black culture's success? I'm not. They need to start acting in their own self-interest, and that *should* be integrating with mainstream US culture and becoming part of it. Thats how they'll be included. Instead, they do everything they can not to be like "whitey." Meanwhile they complain whitey doesn't include them.
 
Cad

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Tanoomba_sl said:
So when your kid gets picked last for the soccer team and the kids say "It's not our fault you're retarded! If you don't like it, why don't you kill yourself?" how would you explain that to your son without being a hypocritical prick?

PS: Being black and being mentally challenged are both disadvantages granted at birth that the birthee has no control over. That is the extent to which they are being compared.
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I'd tell him maybe soccer isn't his game, and lets go play some Parcheesi. What do you want to do, rig the soccer game so all the retards can play and have fun? Thats fucking ridiculous.
 
Kreugen

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Do you know who thinks a tall black male wearing a hoodie at night looks suspicious?

Everyone.

It's only wrong if a 'white' person is doing the profiling, and a giant FUCK THAT to that load of bullshit. Black people don't trust other black people, but it's wrong when a white person does it? Fuck you.

EDIT: Here, another Uncle Tom speaks out:http://www.eurweb.com/2013/07/romany...-sympathizers/
 
Tanoomba

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hodj_sl said:
The really racist thing here is the kid's gloves and cultural segregation that this group of people making this argument are engaging in. Its not racist to say "I think I should be able to treat a black teenager like I would a white teenager if I thought they were both acting in a suspicious manner" Its not racist to say "I think African Americans are perfectly capable of integrating into our society and having normal family lives like everyone else"

Its actually racist to think the opposite. To think that African Americans are special snowflakes that can't be integrated, can't have normal family lives, can't be approached on the street without being in fear of being attacked by them, justifiably, because they have been so prejudiced against that their only response to a white hispanic talking to them in the street is to attack that person.

African Americans are not dumber than whites. They aren't genetically inferior.They can live up to our expectations.They can have higher expectations of themselves. Its not racist to say that and believe that. Its the exact opposite of racism. Expecting minorities to conform to American standards is not racism. To expect them to come here and never be able to live up to our standards...that's racism. That's a presumption that they are incapable of doing so. They aren't.
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Your post started on the wrong foot, but this is easily the most intelligent thing I've seen you post in weeks. I especially like "They can live up to our expectations", because that's exactly what they're doing. We expect them to have a shitty culture, and they respond by having a shitty culture. By saying "This is their problem, they're bringing it on themselves", we are implying that they are not able to live up to our standards, which you point out is racism. Honestly, if everybody could start by agreeing with your statement that black people aren't genetically inferior, that would already be a big step in the right direction.
 
hodj

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chaos_sl said:
And here you're making an assumption that he, or anyone, DOES expect the worst from someone. I expect the best from everyone. Working i the military and now the government side of that, my entire professional career has been working with an inordinate number of black professionals compared to other fields or places of employment. THAT is what I expect, this bullshit thug culture is what I reject. And I wonder what active role you think a person outside of this culture could do to change it.
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Right. Remember after Jeantel's testimony, the flurry of internet and other media articles trying to explain to everyone how she really speaks 3 languages fluently, so really, she's smarter than everyone making fun of her, and really the only reason she's being made fun of is because the evil white power structure of the court refuses to acknowledge her language as just as "Valid" as "White English" or "White Vernacular" so its a sign of an institutionalized prejudice against Jeantel?

Basically this argument can be summed up as "How dare you expect anyone else to live up to your standards, white people?"

How the fuck is that not racist?

And yes, that is what the media is telling the african american community, essentially, you can't live up to their expectations, don't even bother trying. Having expectations of proper behavior in a court room is just a sign of white people exploiting their power over others.

This sort of apologism for a shitty culture is a form of soft bigotry of low expectations.

It is racism. Its the most racist part of this discussion. The sad part? The people that promote that point of view think they're the holier than thou, most unracist people in the world. They get to sit on their soapbox and wag their fingers "For shame, white people. For shame".

They're the most racist people on planet Earth. They literally presume minorities can't live "up to" supposed "white standards". That's essentially accepting that blacks and whites aren't equal due to genetics and never can be, so why bother trying?

I know its not true. There's multiple black families even in my neighborhood. Middle class. Suburban. They mow their lawns regularly and tend their homes and work their jobs and make sure their kids are on the bus in the morning on time. Guess what's different about them from so many others?

The father and the mother are in a long term, committed relationship with one another, and are working as a team to raise the children.
 
chaos

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Kreugen_sl said:
Do you know who thinks a tall black male wearing a hoodie at night looks suspicious?

Everyone.

It's only wrong if a 'white' person is doing the profiling, and a giant FUCK THAT to that load of bullshit. Black people don't trust other black people, but it's wrong when a white person does it? Fuck you.
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Being black isn't even necessarily part of it. ANYONE walking around at night in a hoodie looks suspicious. All these articles saying we should look past what people look like can get fucked.

And if I was black I would like to think I would have pretty thick skin about this stuff, but comparing being born black to being born mentally disabled would probably piss me off.
 
khalid

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I was always taught by my mother never to judge people by the color of their skin or the way they talked. I thought I had internalized that when growing up. Yet I remember my first interaction with my friend Clarke, a black guy I met in the Navy. He walked up to me sitting in front of a chessboard and started immediately talking shit in thug speech. I instantly assumed he was an uncultured thug and then proceeded to lose horribly to him in a game. It was clear after we became friends that I was a much better chess player than him, but boy did my prejudices get in the way during our first meeting.

Now obviously my story is more about my own inherent racism than anyone else's. I grew up in a high school with exactly one black guy, who was 3 years younger than me. Yet I do think we should stop to consider our reaction. That doesn't mean we should dismiss any negative feelings we have toward things like the thug culture, or silly shit you hear like "Marrying is a white thing" or "Ebonics should be taught in schools". However, I do think stopping to consider perhaps your own innate prejudices from time to time is a good thing.
 
Kreugen

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OJ, Jena 6, Zimmerman... if you only get angry when a white person is involved, who is the fucking racist?
 
Tanoomba

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Cad_sl said:
You're skipping the motivation part. Why do we give a fuck? I don't hate black people, but I honestly don't give a fuck about them as a group any more than I give a fuck about white gay long-winded cornholing fucking assholes like you as a group. Why am I invested in black culture's success? I'm not. They need to start acting in their own self-interest, and that *should* be integrating with mainstream US culture and becoming part of it. Thats how they'll be included. Instead, they do everything they can not to be like "whitey." Meanwhile they complain whitey doesn't include them.
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I addressed this. We should give a fuck because we share this society. The actions of some people affect everybody. Of course black people need to act in their own self-interest. The least we can do is make it easier for them by accepting and welcoming them as equals. Heck, I don't even like talking about "black culture" because it perpetuates a division. I like the Morgan Freeman approach of not focusing on our differences and accepting each individual on their own merits. Most of you would probably claim this is exactly what you do, but the racist comments (and even the racist jokes) keep this "us and them" mentality alive and well. Aren't we all in this together? Doesn't humanity as a whole benefit from us cooperating with each other to the greatest extent possible?
 
chaos

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khalid_sl said:
I was always taught by my mother never to judge people by the color of their skin or the way they talked. I thought I had internalized that when growing up. Yet I remember my first interaction with my friend Clarke, a black guy I met in the Navy. He walked up to me sitting in front of a chessboard and started immediately talking shit in thug speech. I instantly assumed he was an uncultured thug and then proceeded to lose horribly to him in a game. It was clear after we became friends that I was a much better chess player than him, but boy did my prejudices get in the way during our first meeting.

Now obviously my story is more about my own inherent racism than anyone else's. I grew up in a high school with exactly one black guy, who was 3 years younger than me. Yet I do think we should stop to consider our reaction. That doesn't mean we should dismiss any negative feelings we have toward things like the thug culture, or silly shit you hear like "Marrying is a white thing" or "Ebonics should be taught in schools". However, I do think stopping to consider perhaps your own innate prejudices from time to time is a good thing.
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That is reasonable, to evaluate yourself. But that goes beyond just race, people make judgements based on all kinds of shit that they shouldn't. I think there is a huge gulf between what you are saying here and what Tanoomba is saying, though.
 
Tanoomba

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Cad_sl said:
I'd tell him maybe soccer isn't his game, and lets go play some Parcheesi. What do you want to do, rig the soccer game so all the retards can play and have fun? Thats fucking ridiculous.
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The point was your son's life would be a lot better if people weren't assholes. Being an asshole to disadvantaged people is something we have personal control over, and if you choose to be an asshole anyway then you're part of the problem.
 
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Tanoomba_sl said:
Heck, I don't even like talking about "black culture" because it perpetuates a division. I like the Morgan Freeman approach of not focusing on our differences and accepting each individual on their own merits.
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You mean Martin Luther King.
 
Tanoomba

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chaos_sl said:
That is reasonable, to evaluate yourself. But that goes beyond just race, people make judgements based on all kinds of shit that they shouldn't. I think there is a huge gulf between what you are saying here and what Tanoomba is saying, though.
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Really? What's the difference?
 
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