Mad Men

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chaos

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Yeah pretty much. The only thing I can see she definitely should have done differently was she probably should have informed him before that meeting what Lou's decision was about the project team. But this silly shit like "summons him to her office" whatever, she called the meeting, she is the project lead, Don is writing copy on that team and is lucky to have that job. And the partners don't even want him to have that, and they made that pretty clear. Maybe I missed something that you guys saw but I didn't see her talk down to Don at all. She broke down what the project was and what their assignments were, then Don broke out, threw a fit, and almost sabotaged himself again.
 

Gask

Silver Baron of the Realm
13,142
51,420
In their hierarchy (as has been established throughout the run of series) an employee does not call a partner into their office and then proceed to tell them what to do, as she well knows, and in doing so she set a roadblock in the way of her project. As for Don being on the shit list... well, no one invited Peggy to those meetings and as such she doesn't know to what extent Don has been leashed only that hes been assigned to her for whatever reason.
 

chaos

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We haven't seen a relationship like this in the series, the only real analog is Joan who definitely does go to Ken's office for her marching orders.

I'd imagine Peggy suspects more than that. He fucked up horribly, he's out for months, he comes back and does absolutely nothing for weeks, and then his first assignment comes A: on the back of a raise and god forbid a complement from Lou and B: with him being assigned to her for menial copy work. But I don't really think that factors into her decision process, I'm just saying that from his point of view, he very much understands the position he is in. Or he should have, but it seems like he had delusions that he could game the system.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,657
It's really just the hamfisted way she handled it. It's hard to take that credibly, that she would be quite that dumb about it.

"They put Don on my project? Shit. Well, SHIT. Oh fuck me. Ok, I guess I better go all hardass on him even though he absolutely knows it's a bluff!"

Smart Peggy doesn't check herself at Don's door. Smart peggy realizes that Don has an ego and even if he's fallen from grace still has the ability to completely fuck her over if she dares him to. Peggy's smarter than that is all, so while the situation itself is generally credible (analogues of this do happen) it is less credible that Peggy does this in this situation.

You've just got to be sort of fucking stupid to think something like that is going to work out for you, and Peggy isn't supposed to be fucking stupid.
 

Lithose

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Chaos man, sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree (On office politics). Each office works differently; but if I called a partner into my officewitha junior clerk and handed them the exact same marching orders? I'd be putting a bulls eye on my back for at least the next year. As for Joan--Joan is head of personnel; her job is partially logging meetings between other offices. She travels to the offices because that's part of her job, which is probably why she accepted her account position; because the personnel head is a naturally subordinate position (It's head secretary; as Paul said in S1). However, when she was brought to Ken's office--notice it was for GOOD news on an *account*; a field Joan has been trying to break into. (Ken was essentially giving her the day-to-day meetings on the account--he sounded like a dick about it, because he's about to have a break down BUT it wasgoodnews all the same--watch S1, Don gets called in a lot, but almost always for good news.).

Also, was there another peon in the room? Did Joan get anunimportantassignment alongside said peon? Nope. So the orders were obviously specially crafted for her (Again, good news too) and not just some marching orders you toss to a junior. So I don't really see the situation as analog, there were more variables than just the "summoning to the office". (The real analog was Lou summoning Joan--but again, that's due to the nature of head of personnel.) If Peggy had asked Don to come to her office--and talked to himalone, to explain a unique situation, you might have a point. That's been done before (But usually only with good news). But she specifically called him in, told him it was her account, and gave him the most menial set of tasks on said account along side a junior copywriter (Subtle Pegster, oh socleverand subtle).

Peggy bluffed, Don called and Peggy realized she had nothing. Even Don's stipulations didn't give Peggy any ammo, because they all have to deal with clients. Don knew that, which is why he chose to have a tantrum and call Peggy's power play (And she folded, instantly). What brought him back to the table was the long game, as explained by Rummsen. (The thing about this that gets me, is as you see in the show--Peggy KNEW what was happening. She knew Don was essentially a land mine for her, which is why her actions seem so perplexing to me.) However; again each office is different so maybe I'm seeing something that's striking a personal cord with me. We'll have to agree to disagree. But what I saw there, personally? Was Peggy realized the trap and still went ahead anyway and bull-headedly committed the faux pas they set her up for. (I mean, she even ASKED Lou to tell Don because she knew this was bad office juju; yet after Lou ramped up her confidence, she decided--whelp, I'll handle this in the most blunt, tactless, matter-o-fact fashion I can think of!)

Which is why it feels like sloppy writing. Lou could not have been more transparent in setting up that show down if he had a twirly mustache. I mean come on; a raise and a pep talk about her being boss, as well as a "I'm on your side, I'd have hired you" allegiance talk, before unleashing her on a partner? It was anobvioustrap. Build up her confidence and then send her for a show down against someone with a massive ego and somewhat more power than her. And Peggy saw right through it (Hence asking Lou to tell Don), but rushed the trap anyway. It just felt forced and silly. (And I know Joan said they just didn't care--but she was talking about the partners; there was a plot, just from Lou).
 

Fingz_sl

shitlord
238
0
Everyone is supposed to act like an adult. Don knows Peggy needs to get the work done. If Peggy was a better manager, maybe she would've coddled Don a bit.

When Peggy showed up the next morning only to find Don ready to work, who knows what she would've said. She doesn't have years of management experience under her belt.

When Roger and Ted find out that Don was put under Peggy, they might protest.

Cooper was hard on Don, but when you take someone to the woodpile for a whipping, you don't backtrack. He told Don he isn't irreplaceable which is true, the office is getting by without Don fine. But Cooper said in the meeting with the other partners that they didn't fire Don and expected him to return which means he values Don.

Freddie was wonderful. I wish I had someone like Freddie in my life pointing out when I was being and idiot. It would've saved me a lot of money and time over the years.
 

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
<Silver Donator>
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Freddy's doing AA stuff. If Don ever quits drinking for real Freddy will probably be his sponsor.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
607
Can anyone explain to me what was going on with drunk Don interacting with the computer guy? That scene I didn't understand in the least.
 

spronk

FPS noob
23,519
27,501
in his drunken state Don sees the computer guy as The Devil, tempting him into "sin". Thats why he says biblical shit like "You go by many names, I know who you are, " etc.

in Don's drunk mind, the devil has come to try and seduce Don with the perfect client so he can make the perfect pitch and build himself into the master, but he sees through it and lets the devil know. Obviously its just Don being... fucked up.
 

Slaythe

<Bronze Donator>
3,389
141
I have never been project lead in a situation like this, I imagine I would have handled it differently at the start, but my overall strategy would have been the same.
You aren't a women, this isn't 1969 and you wouldn't hate, on a very deeply personal level, the person you'd be dealing with.

Peggy has no love for Don right now. She (wrongly) blames him for what happened with Ted. The right way to deal with this was to approach Don, say "Lou is pitting us against one another how do we deal with this?" and figure out a strategy to move forward. You see her almost consider this as she's about to knock on Don's door. Then she takes a step back, calls a formal meeting where she talks over him next to a junior copywriter, and gives him a garbage man task.

I don't think she's thinking rationally here. She wanted to rub it in Don's face, and it backfired when he just ignored her and she couldn't do anything about it. Regardless of the positions in this place, Don, even at his neutered role, still holds infinitely more power than she does or ever will (if only because he apparently has two partners with decision making ability on his side). Hell, had Roger not been dealing with family issues, Don probably would have just nailed a new account the rest of them couldn't have said no to.
 

Bondurant

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
3,853
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My humble opinion :

-Don@ SC&P feels himself like a living God, wandering around blessing or punishing souls, being awesome while doing creative work on the spot. It's basically Don since SC years. He got some concept of an idea, tells everyone to work on it then discards anything not being his vision. We see him taking shit from Peggy and doing anything because his routine has now changed, he's not a God anymore, he's a mongrel with a task. He obviously thought he had to stay on his office and people would run through him, asking for his input. Well, that didn't happen. 25 tags, got mad, alcohol binge and shit (you know your life is awful when Freddy Rumsen judges you). Don learned it the hard way, he has to earn his return.

-Peggyis basically that 40yo girl with cats. She's a woman, ranked in some top notch ad agency, with no family. Which, from 1970, is a big gig and also a huge impediment. She's having a shit life in NYC, craving so much for any relation and feels like her work opinion is as valuable as weather prediction. Well she's a 1970 executive woman leading men, good luck with that.

-Rodgeris having a huge crisis, he has to "free his daughter from the hippie claws" while having a dissolute life himself. He ended up crying, while covered in mud. Symbolism. Though his lines are always delightful, him bashing Crane over the IBM boogaloo is gold.

-BertCooper is an old fashioned man. He still believes having a "negro" receptionist is bad for business although most ad agency business nowadays is conducted by phone, no real client is going upfront, waiting in the lounge. He cares a lot about money because that's what old people do. He knows he isn't up to touch with nowadays business, he's a righrful manager, he manages company rather than directing it. He's your nowadays society Gandalf, the kind of guy you keep paying because they mattered once and they can still give direction, business wise.

-Laneis dead, deal with it. Mets won, though.

-Bobbyruins days and Betty is awesome, because if you want love you have to give love. Betty isn't a stellar cunt ? Probably. She doesn't hate her kids, she just hates herself.

-Campbell / Crane / Cosgroveright now are pawns in the big scheme, they'll become important as soon as heads will fall, that's how capitalism works. They're too smart to being forgotten, and too young to being meaningful.

-Joanis there since start, she's the kind of evolved mongrel who makes or breaks companies, being the ultra-agenda. She knows everything. She's also climbed her way into partnership and accounts. You're mad ? Deal with it, you're too ugly to land any account whatsoever. You're just jealous because you'll never be Joan, whoring your way into executive, while Peggy had to work in a more vertical, clinical way.
 

chaos

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Chaos man, sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree (On office politics). Each office works differently; but if I called a partner into my officewitha junior clerk and handed them the exact same marching orders? I'd be putting a bulls eye on my back for at least the next year. As for Joan--Joan is head of personnel; her job is partially logging meetings between other offices. She travels to the offices because that's part of her job, which is probably why she accepted her account position; because the personnel head is a naturally subordinate position (It's head secretary; as Paul said in S1). However, when she was brought to Ken's office--notice it was for GOOD news on an *account*; a field Joan has been trying to break into. (Ken was essentially giving her the day-to-day meetings on the account--he sounded like a dick about it, because he's about to have a break down BUT it wasgoodnews all the same--watch S1, Don gets called in a lot, but almost always for good news.).

Also, was there another peon in the room? Did Joan get anunimportantassignment alongside said peon? Nope. So the orders were obviously specially crafted for her (Again, good news too) and not just some marching orders you toss to a junior. So I don't really see the situation as analog, there were more variables than just the "summoning to the office". (The real analog was Lou summoning Joan--but again, that's due to the nature of head of personnel.) If Peggy had asked Don to come to her office--and talked to himalone, to explain a unique situation, you might have a point. That's been done before (But usually only with good news). But she specifically called him in, told him it was her account, and gave him the most menial set of tasks on said account along side a junior copywriter (Subtle Pegster, oh socleverand subtle).

Peggy bluffed, Don called and Peggy realized she had nothing. Even Don's stipulations didn't give Peggy any ammo, because they all have to deal with clients. Don knew that, which is why he chose to have a tantrum and call Peggy's power play (And she folded, instantly). What brought him back to the table was the long game, as explained by Rummsen. (The thing about this that gets me, is as you see in the show--Peggy KNEW what was happening. She knew Don was essentially a land mine for her, which is why her actions seem so perplexing to me.) However; again each office is different so maybe I'm seeing something that's striking a personal cord with me. We'll have to agree to disagree. But what I saw there, personally? Was Peggy realized the trap and still went ahead anyway and bull-headedly committed the faux pas they set her up for. (I mean, she even ASKED Lou to tell Don because she knew this was bad office juju; yet after Lou ramped up her confidence, she decided--whelp, I'll handle this in the most blunt, tactless, matter-o-fact fashion I can think of!)

Which is why it feels like sloppy writing. Lou could not have been more transparent in setting up that show down if he had a twirly mustache. I mean come on; a raise and a pep talk about her being boss, as well as a "I'm on your side, I'd have hired you" allegiance talk, before unleashing her on a partner? It was anobvioustrap. Build up her confidence and then send her for a show down against someone with a massive ego and somewhat more power than her. And Peggy saw right through it (Hence asking Lou to tell Don), but rushed the trap anyway. It just felt forced and silly. (And I know Joan said they just didn't care--but she was talking about the partners; there was a plot, just from Lou).
Well, as I said, I've never been involved in a situation like this and we don't have partners or the equivalent where I work. Maybe this is just an experience thing, or maybe a military thing, idk, I am having trouble finding a lot of stuff wrong with what she did beyond her initial approach. That and I think she doesn't know how to deal with being set up by Lou, but I have to believe that she understands that is what is happening. What I saw was Peggy fumbled the approach to Don because she was either nervous or unsure of herself, but the actual assignment of work was just business as usual. You could interpret what she told Don as good news, also. They finally took him off the bench, after weeks of sitting around his office playing solitaire or whatever. He may not see it that way, but that is his own unrealistic assumptions of what this second chance means. Even pairing Don with the junior guy, really don't see the problem with that. I'm assuming she is trying to put the best person to work alongside Don, but maybe that is too much to hope for. I am guessing we will find out more this week. I just want to see Don stop fucking up and Peggy start being Awesome Peggy again instead of Feel Sorry For Me Peggy.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
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17,657
Peggyis basically that 40yo girl with cats. She's a woman, ranked in some top notch ad agency, with no family. Which, from 1970, is a big gig and also a huge impediment. She's having a shit life in NYC, craving so much for any relation and feels like her work opinion is as valuable as weather prediction. Well she's a 1970 executive woman leading men, good luck with that.
hehehe. That scene where peggy is sitting on her sofa and her and the cat are just staring at each other.

hehehehehehehe
 

Lithose

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btw; you know one thing that's been bothering me in the office? It's how just 6 years prior; the entire office seemed to loathe what they are right now. Check this clip out.




And then think about Cutler talking about buying media and needing a computer for superior buys. Cutlerisessentially Duck Phillips reborn; but this time Don is in a weaker position. This is, by my count, thethirdtime this same storyline about the romantic nature of advertising (Making people happy) vs rational nature of ad revenue space (People are mindless hoarders, they just need direction) has come up. The first time was Duck, the second time was when Don got them fired to avoid Mccan Ericson's buyout (Because, as we saw in S1/S2, Mccan Ericson is that type of mass production company.) and now this time, where Cutler is pulling the strings (And saying that mediocre creative is fine as long as they control the ad space effectively).

I think this is why this storyline feels a bit tired to me. Because it just seems like a "bigger and badder" version of the previous two--like each version is the same, except Don has more draw backs, while his opponent has more advantages and that's supposed to make it more dramatic. So this time, to make it "really" dramatic, the "enemies" had to be his friends--who are now acting like corporate zombies, and Don has to be shackled by disgrace and fight his way back up.

I still really like the show. But the writing, again, feels a little recycled--and the characters? Well, they still feel organic in their overall actions BUT the severity of their actions seem to be stemming more from story needs, rather than just rational reaction. Like, for example, it makes sense why Cooper is pissy--what doesn't make sense was how mean he was about it to a long time friend. Or it makes sense Peggy is pissy; she has reasons to be annoyed at Don, but her whole "Can't say we missed ya!" Betty-esque reaction feels disproportionate and overly severe (Again, more drama for drama's sake)...All to make this supposed come back, or downfall feel more "epic" I guess?

I don't know. Maybe it will work out...but thus far, this season feels...forced; and not forced as in the story doesn't make sense BUT forced as in the story is being overly dramatic for drama's sake. Still some of the best TV on but a lot less subtle than previous seasons.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,657
Yeah. Maybe some of that. They're going out big, at least. Small vs. Big, Partner vs. Corporate... it's a recurring theme. I'm not personally sure what story they could tell in this setting that didn't involve exactly that. It's thematically true at least, there was that generational trend. And it only snowballed worse through the 70's, getting downright stupid in the 80's.

I think the whole thing is that this time, Don isn't going to win that particular fight. But hopefully he finally will win the fight with a few of whatever fucked up personal demons he has. I expect that, at least. So yeah it's the same framework but I expect the story to be different. If they DO wind up doing that "beat him to the lowest point for ep7 so that he can rise glorious in ep13", which has been a pattern for them then yeah, that's hardgay. And beneath them.

I'm a little relieved that they didn't go the other way with it and just had Don completely Don Don and Don everything with Don.

Don.

I love Don and all, but the back end of last season was worse than the front end of this one.
 

chaos

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I figured that was intentional, that the constant threat of changing the culture of SC&P was always from an outside threat, but this time it is an internal threat and Don is not equipped to fight it back. The new partners from the merger, Joan, Cooper, Harry, Ken, etc are all aligned against him. You kind of have to wonder why he even wants to be a part of this agency anymore, because I very seriously doubt he is going to turn it around for Vanguard.

I never would have described Cooper as Don's friend, either.
 

Heylel

Trakanon Raider
3,602
430
Or it makes sense Peggy is pissy; she has reasons to be annoyed at Don, but her whole "Can't say we missed ya!" Betty-esque reaction feels disproportionate and overly severe (Again, more drama for drama's sake)...All to make this supposed come back, or downfall feel more "epic" I guess?
Peggy doesn't want Don back, she wants Lou gone and to be creative director. Don coming back pretty firmly closes the door on that ever happening for her.

Of course, so does having Ted as the other creative director, but she hasn't given that any thought.
 

Alex

Still a Music Elitist
14,720
7,539
And then think about Cutler talking about buying media and needing a computer for superior buys. Cutlerisessentially Duck Phillips reborn; but this time Don is in a weaker position. This is, by my count, thethirdtime this same storyline about the romantic nature of advertising (Making people happy) vs rational nature of ad revenue space (People are mindless hoarders, they just need direction) has come up. The first time was Duck, the second time was when Don got them fired to avoid Mccan Ericson's buyout (Because, as we saw in S1/S2, Mccan Ericson is that type of mass production company.) and now this time, where Cutler is pulling the strings (And saying that mediocre creative is fine as long as they control the ad space effectively).

I think this is why this storyline feels a bit tired to me. Because it just seems like a "bigger and badder" version of the previous two--like each version is the same, except Don has more draw backs, while his opponent has more advantages and that's supposed to make it more dramatic. So this time, to make it "really" dramatic, the "enemies" had to be his friends--who are now acting like corporate zombies, and Don has to be shackled by disgrace and fight his way back up.
This is a recurring theme in every workplace though. It IS a retread story - and we've all lived. At least I have. It's why I use the "300 employee" benchmark for companies I look to work for, because they become more mediocre, more watered down, and less innovative once they pass that line. Every business faces these struggles as they grow larger and SC&P is at that point.
 

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
<Silver Donator>
14,762
2,644
First bit of the old Don Draper swagger this season.