Marriage and the Power of Divorce

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Nester

Nester

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Vandyn_sl said:
If it really becomes impossible (due to circumstances out of your control), have you guys every considered adopting or even pregnancy via a surrogate?
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I was against addoption at first as i really wanted to pass my genes down (purpose of life for non religous folks??) but with more time and more desperation addoption becomes a more viable option. Its scary as many addoptions take forever and are Open, which means the birth mother may have access. I am not cool with that. In canada you can not get on the wait list for addoption while you are in process of fertility treatment, we are going to do another round of IVF so we cant even start down the addoption path. It is illegal in Canada to pay a surrogate, so we would need to have a friend step up. So far that is not an option which is another emotional hurdle for my wife "why wont my friends offer to carry the baby, i would in a heart beat." fees in the USA for a surrogate are near $30k plus about $15k for the IVF, so not something to jump into.

I ended up buying my wife a horse last year as a distraction, so far its working very well.
 
chaos

chaos

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mkopec_sl said:
We waited a couple of years. did a lot of partying and traveling, vacations...etc... It was great. If I could take it all back I would wait a couple of more years. Not that kids are bad or whatever, its that life drastically changes from fun to work.
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Yeah, my kids were basically all accidents, which is ok. And I love them, of course, like a lot. I'd kill you all without a second thought for them. I even share my curly fries with them. This is the depth of our love.

But, yeah, if I was able to choose, I would have spent a couple of years having fun, paying off debt, fixing up the house, finishing school, learning a trade, painting a self portrait, whatever.
 
T

The Master

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Getting pregnant is really weird. Sometimes everything is fine physically but the woman's body is just like "Nope." That can be entirely psychological but be having a physiological effect. Stress being the big thing. Also you have weird things like very low bf% effecting conception rates, which makes sense (your body interprets a low fat reserve as an overall lack of food, children die without food), but for us today that has no meaning. And people with far worse lives and much worse stress pop them out rapidly... which also makes sense, if you want to pass your genes on and can't guarantee all the kids will make it to adulthood, you need back ups. Also why poorer people tend to have girls (ensures your genes get passed on) and richer people tend to have boys (because a high status male can spread his seed around very easily). There are just so many things. The fact that stress can be a factor always felt really awful to me, because of course the stress of not getting pregnant just has this feedback loop in and of itself....
 
BrutulTM

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It's very sad that people in their 30s who have done everything right and want kids have so much trouble with it while teenagers who are going to have their lives ruined by a baby get pregnant at the drop of a hat. Dr. Drew always says that if you are a woman over 30 and you want to have kids you should have some eggs frozen just in case because over 35 the odds are not great.

I have some friends that did the open adoption thing. I assumed that the birth mother would be some 19 year old in trouble but the chick is actually 28 and this is her third kid that she has put up for adoption. To me that sounds like a potential nut job that I would not want around my kid but it's tough to get a healthy white infant if that's what you want so I guess beggars can't be choosers.
 
Nester

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The Master_sl said:
Getting pregnant is really weird. Sometimes everything is fine physically but the woman's body is just like "Nope." That can be entirely psychological but be having a physiological effect. Stress being the big thing. Also you have weird things like very low bf% effecting conception rates, which makes sense (your body interprets a low fat reserve as an overall lack of food, children die without food), but for us today that has no meaning. And people with far worse lives and much worse stress pop them out rapidly... which also makes sense, if you want to pass your genes on and can't guarantee all the kids will make it to adulthood, you need back ups. Also why poorer people tend to have girls (ensures your genes get passed on) and richer people tend to have boys (because a high status male can spread his seed around very easily). There are just so many things. The fact that stress can be a factor always felt really awful to me, because of course the stress of not getting pregnant just has this feedback loop in and of itself....
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Sorry but stress is not a factor. I thought it was but have now been educated first hand. It is a source of frustration when folks say, just go relax it will happen.

THink of the most stressfull places in the world. Gaza, Sudan Refugue camps, War torn ukraine/kenya etc.. conception is not an issue in places where the stress of living destroys what we think we feel here in the first world. Think of all the rape babies in refuge camps? could anything be more stressfull than that?

This is not my conclusion but the conclusion of multiple fertility experts in 2 countries that i have paid thousands to, including a clinical physcoligist who speclizes in fertility.

The worst thing you can say to a person with fertility issues is, "its stress." cuz its not.


We think we have it figure out just in the last few months, we think (we can never know for sure) my wife has a hyper active immune system that kills the embro's our next go will include specific medication to counter that. (fucking scary when you start talking about messing with your immune system)
 
T

The Master

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Stress is a relative thing, psychologically. Also, and this probably doesn't help, fertility experts tell you that because it reduces stress. It a standard practice. Reality is stress is a factor in up to 30% of infertility cases.

Stress and Infertility

Brief article, but I'd encourage you to look up the studies Margareta D. Pisarska is referring to. She's been putting together the pieces of this for a while, because while there is a statistically significant difference in fertility, the causes are still unclear and seem to be fairly individual.

I'm glad your doctors think they have it figured it out for your situation, I hope it all works out for you.
 
Foggy

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Stress is so incredibly hard to measure, especially what its actually affects. Hell, from the article itself:

While doctors say that right now there aren't enough data to draw a clear and obvious link, many believe it's only a matter of time before we connect all the dots and see the bigger picture.
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Just because a woman was doing stress relief techniques when she became pregnant does not prove it had any impact. Correlation does not prove causation.
 
BrotherWu

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When we decided to "try" my wife was pregnant immediately after that cycle. The second one was a surprise. I sort of wish we had a little more challenge.

I am sure you have researched everything, Noodle, but are you two watching nutrition, rest, etc.? Also, my wife directed me to cease all clown punching the month before. We basically had scheduled sex every two days for three weeks.

Hang in there and good luck.
 
T

The Master

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Go read the studies. What they did was saliva swabs. I think the latest one was from the University of Ohio. They measured for levels of two substances related to long-term stress (alpha-amylase and cortisol). Higher concentrations of alpha-amylase were less fertile, cortisol didn't seem to make a difference. The results have been reproduced over and over again. Yes, it is "merely" a strong statistical correlation. Figuring out causation is what they are working on now. But in the absence of other data and the studies controlled for age, race, income, health history, and socioecomonic factors, they've concluded there is a link between stress and infertility.
 
A

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Phazael_sl said:
Having kids early is a mistake, especially if its the wife who is pressuring for it. This is code for "I want to stay home and watch TV while ignoring the kid all day for the next 18 years." basically. If money is tight without the kid, WAIT. Plus, once you shit out the fuck trophy, her family will treat it like a golden ticket to drop in any time they feel like it, because grandkids. Basically, wait and sort other shit first, ESPECIALLY finances.
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Yes and no. We have 5 more years with our kids. They will be out of the house before we turn 40. For good ... that thought alone makes life worth living.
 
Phazael

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@Noodle- My bad if its a health concern, but you have discussed other emotional marital concerns in the thread before, so I thought it was along those lines. There are situations where people are simply unable to have children, however, so be ready for that. There was someone else in this thread who was doing the fertility money pit dance who could probably give you better advice about that one.

@Soy- You can't tell me you have not at least had friends who got married young and then suddenly the wife wanted to shit a kid out right after she got out of college? That crap happens ALL the time. But I agree with whoever said 30-35 is the right age to have a kid. Anything less and you are going to have stability issues. Anything older and you might be a crusty old fuck by the time the kid clears college. I knew when I did not get married until 35 that kids were not in the cards, but I was also ok with that. Some people, especially religious ones, feel like they are somehow less of a human being if they don't crank out at LEAST one kid.
 
chaos

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a_skeleton_03_sl said:
Yes and no. We have 5 more years with our kids. They will be out of the house before we turn 40. For good ... that thought alone makes life worth living.
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Yeah I work with a bunch of oldtimers, and it never ends. They are always helping their kids out, some have their kids staying with them, one has his son and his son's wife. More than one is paying college loans for their kids. Never fucking ending story.
 
Phazael

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a_skeleton_03_sl said:
Yes and no. We have 5 more years with our kids. They will be out of the house before we turn 40. For good ... that thought alone makes life worth living.
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I am guessing that, given your nature, you were probably a great deal more fiscally and martially stable than most 20 somethings when the first kid came into the picture, though. Some people make babies without thinking through all the responsibilities or consequences.
 
A

a_skeleton_03

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Phazael_sl said:
I am guessing that, given your nature, you were probably a great deal more fiscally and martially stable than most 20 somethings when the first kid came into the picture, though. Some people make babies without thinking through all the responsibilities or consequences.
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Yeah, we had our ups and downs but we are generally stable. Quite pleased with the overall financial health even though we are barely in the black at least we don't have massive debt, two steady incomes, and live quite comfortably. All with the low price of 13 years in the military and paying for the wife's bachelors and masters degree. If only I would have married a minority so those degrees could have been free! I had to go and marry a white woman!!
 
Khane

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This thread got real. I feel for all my bros having problems. I hope you guys pull through Noodle and Nester, I can't imagine the strain that can create.
 
Tuco

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NoodleAnus_sl said:
We're having some trouble and we both realize something isn't right for her right now. Her appointment is a month or two away. She gets really upset because it's been her dream to raise children, so when people ask she gets depressed (she won't show it).

We had the family barbecue on Sunday and over 30 people kept asking it. She was really upset after they all left.

People just don't get it.

There is a reason we don't have kids:
1) We don't want them.
2) We are waiting until we are stable (we just bought a fucking house in May)
3) We can't have them.
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Yeah it's the same as if you're unemployed and everyone asks how the job hunt is going. If there was good news you'd hear it.
 
Phazael

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Dumar_sl said:
This thread went from interesting to shit real fast.
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It's shit to you because you have never been married, much less seriously contemplated raising a child. But yet you think you somehow have superior knowledge because you read some douchebag dating subreddits and have been able to score granola eating hippy girls who are impressed with your knowledge of Marx. First, flannel wearing hippy wannabe girls are the easiest women to bang on the planet and you don't need some special secret decoder ring to get them to put out, so The Red Pill is not the fucking Necronomicon of Pussy Slaying like you think it is. Second, until you have committed to someone (i.e. shared a bathroom with them and still don't want to murder them after a year or two) you just plain do not really understand why this shit matters to other guys in the thread.

There is a thread in Screenshots being steamrolled by your fellow acadamians Tanoomba and Mist if you want to argue things using nothing but book knowledge and no practical experience.
 
Phazael

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@Nester-
We had some friends go through that and they dumped something like over a quarter mil into fertility treatments and came up empty. My wife and I have zero plans to ever have kids and mentioning that to them sort of made them bitter at us. Of course their situation was made worse by the fact that the husband refused adoption as an option because he wanted the kid to be genetically his. Have you guys considered adopting or is having your own genetic mini me a deal breaker?
 
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