Murders and Shootings

Azrayne_sl said:

I doubt you 'could' find a graph which doesn't show American gun murders being significantly higher than every other civilized country unless you made it yourself.

https://www.google.com.au/search?num....1.UlYjnlF3Qg0

Go on, can you see what they all have in common?

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Finland has significantly higher gun-related homicides (per 100,000) than the U.S. We barely rank above Austria. What turns everything on its head, is when you factor in suicides by gun. We have nearly twice the amount of gun-related suicides than homicides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

Anyways, I can link graphs that show high gun ownership and low murder rate in other countries thus establishing that the correlation between murder rate and gun ownership is tenuous at best and hysterics at worst.

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Which goes to show that those countries are capable of crafting effective gun control policy and addressing the underlying socio-economic issues which fuel violence, and that's great for them, but that in no way suggests that America wouldn't benefit from more stringent gun control efforts. To go back to my earlier analogy, those countries are the guy who can do a line at a party, go home and sleep it off and go back to life as normal the next day, America is the sketchy dude locked in the bathroom with the 8ball who hasn't slept in 3 days. You can deflect all you want by saying it works in other countries, but the fact is that it obviously doesn't work in yours at this particular point in time.

Hell, if it works so well in these countries, why isn't America changing their gun laws to be more like theirs?

Azrayne_sl said:

Which goes to show that those countries are capable of crafting effective gun control policy and addressing the underlying socio-economic issues which fuel violence, and that's great for them, but that in no way suggests that America wouldn't benefit from more stringent gun control efforts. To go back to my earlier analogy, those countries are the guy who can do a line at a party, go home and sleep it off and go back to life as normal the next day, America is the sketchy dude locked in the bathroom with the 8ball who hasn't slept in 3 days. You can deflect all you want by saying it works in other countries, but the fact is that it obviously doesn't work in yours at this particular point in time.

Hell, if it works so well in these countries, why isn't America changing their gun laws to be more like theirs?

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You didn't fucking post a graph with gun related murders, you posted a graph with gun related deaths. Not the same thing.

kaosu_sl said:

Finland has significantly higher gun-related homicides (per 100,000) than the U.S. We barely rank above Austria. What turns everything on its head, is when you factor in suicides by gun. We have nearly twice the amount of gun-related suicides than homicides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

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Finland has significantly lower rate both in homicides and suicides than USA.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/co...n_homicide/194

What Finland has is a significantly higher rate of suicides compared to homicides when guns are concerned (compared to USA)

satael_sl said:

Finland has significantly lower rate both in homicides and suicides than USA.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/co...n_homicide/194

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Wiki was wrong, then. Guess you changed it?

Anyways, as a way to get back on topic, latest news to come out is:

1) A teacher at the school is now apparently saying the killer's mother was not a teacher at the school
2) An interview with a parent who had arrived shortly after the killings had started noted that one of the windows near the locked entry door to the school was smashed
3) Reports are stating that only the 2 handguns were found on the shooter and the Bushmaster was still in his car

Trollface_sl said:

yooo araysar, I agree. its a cultural/mental problem. There is a bigger issue to fly than a proper gun regulation without tea party bullshit. I think that's why I kept saying American psyche is the problem.

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http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellnes...ry?id=13756579

As I said in the Portland thread I'm tired of there not being rational discussion on this issue. Like the link above is a PERFECT example of a law that SHOULD have been passed.

sigh.

Pic of the killer from 2005

Famm_sl said:

Uh, you pretty much inferred it. And you brought homeschooling into the discussion yet now it has nothing to do with the discussion? Might not have been one of your original reasons but you are adding it to the reasons now, so don't start pussy whining when someone calls you out on how stupid that sounds. Why don't you just shut the hell up about home schooling. You're probably a total fruitcake new age hippie couple or fundie christians.

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Since it seems that this is a giant hot button with people I won't bring it up again. However not a hippie or a christian. Just so you know.

At the most recent press conference, the police were asked about motive and if they found anything that could explain why the shooter did what he did... they said they found "good evidence" at the non-school crime scene, so who knows if we can get some insight.

And yeah, they confirmed that he forced his way inside and was not simply let in.

If there were a police officer inside of the school in this case then it would have at the very least been a road block in front of the crazy guy, no matter how small of a road block, that isn't the argument. The point is that an officer simply being there is going to do something to distract and/or delay the killer.
Also I am in no way advocating a TSA-type system. I think that the TSA hassles innocent and harmless people for no reason other than to give a false sense of security to people and make it seem like they are doing something good.

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Do you really think more cops is the solution ? 1 police officer per school would be quite expensive and probably useless.... because as history shows, more policemen is less crime ?
Even IF there was a cop at the gates, with "unlimited entry search privileges" if i wanted to kill 20 kids, i would just wait (as someone pointed out) for the end of the school day....
Even tighter packed targets, shooting fish in a barrel ! As for the TSA... the most colossal waste of cash ever (unless of course you are high up and benefit from it).

And with 300M guns in the US, getting rid of guns is out of the question. And well criminals (and crazy fucks) will still find a way to get guns...
However as a criminal, if i know there's 0% chance of my target being armed (thus my life is not at stake) there's almost no reason to use lethal force (see japan's example).

Crazy fucks will kill people, it happens even France/Germany/Norway.... There's no cure for Madness/Evil (unless you imagine a big brother / 1984 scenario).

The real problem (at least for me) is the "Media Super Star" syndrome :
"Joe the Trucker" kills 10 because he fell asleep behind the wheel... at most you'll see a couple of lines in the papers, he's dead and forgotten.
"Jack the Psycho" goes in a school and kills 10 kids ? He'll share his pain/anger/fear and live forever ! Special Documentary, 200 hours live footage, Special Edition on CNN....
Fuck..... you'll even make Obama cry... Super Stardom !

Talk about going out with a bang and leaving your mark in history ?!?!

Which part of the budget do you want to cut to pay for armed guards at schools? At this point they are lucky to get their own books. Armed guards who will be the first one shot should some crazy fuck ever decide to do this again.

Also, don't forget guards at the playground or your kids soccer game.

There's nowhere safe from crazy. We all just play the odds.

The armed guards at schools idea is every bit as retarded as the TSA bullshit at airports. Unfortunately, it's going to take some dude opening fire/setting off a bomb in the enormous crowds that tend to accumulate BEFORE TSA checkpoints before people start to realize what a colossal fucking waste of money it is.

Exactly. At work, some woman in a cube a few rows over started going off about how all schools should have complex gated systems (like turnstyle doors) where you have to badge to get in, etc. All I could think about was "Yea, with what money considering how much public education budgets get slashed?".

People just don't like the cold truth: There is jack fucking shit you can do to stop this from happening if someone is bent on doing it. This school had locked doors and he still broke his way inside. He could have waited for Recess (when kids are all running around outside) and done it. He could have done it when kids were leaving. That's why scapegoats are so attractive. They boil a complex situation down to an equation that says "If X happens because of A, if remove A, then X cannot happen!".

Cybsled_sl said:

Exactly. At work, some woman in a cube a few rows over started going off about how all schools should have complex gated systems (like turnstyle doors) where you have to badge to get in, etc. All I could think about was "Yea, with what money considering how much public education budgets get slashed?".

People just don't like the cold truth: There is jack fucking shit you can do to stop this from happening if someone is bent on doing it. This school had locked doors and he still broke his way inside. He could have waited for Recess (when kids are all running around outside) and done it. He could have done it when kids were leaving. That's why scapegoats are so attractive. They boil a complex situation down to an equation that says "If X happens because of A, if remove A, then X cannot happen!".

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Couple years ago I just walked right in to my old High School to talk to an old teacher. Near the end of the day but class wasn't actually out yet. No locked doors, nobody saying 'can I help you sir'.

haus_sl said:

One reason the Japanese system would not work here is because America lacks a ton of the social structure that Japan has. In Japan there is an implicit level of respect even between gangs and police. Not to mention it's easiler to prevent illegal importation of guns into Japan than into the US as we have a porous border to the south.

If anything I think a more Israeli approach would work here. Arm enough good guys and you deter a lot of the random criminal/looney action. (discounting organized military action and insurrection/terrorism as they have a bit of a bigger problem with that over there.)

Or as Heinlein wrote in 1942: "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life"

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And you'll end up with this

So....someone told Fox that they thought the shooter had autism. Fox's response now is that we need to have a conversation that involves aspergers.

Cam - can you weigh in here with some expertise?