Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Tuco_sl said:

I'm down with that. In Skyrim when I was doing super immersive, dead is dead playthroughs I modded my map so it didn't show my location. I also modded the compass to remove the near location icons and enemy icons. The game world really changes when you stop looking at terrain as just eye candy and start using it to know where you are.

I say this but I'm directionally strong and can use a map. There's a ton of people who can't navigate game worlds for shit. I guess it's part of the socialization of MMOs that's missing. People in EQ used to ask for someone to help guide them through confusing areas (Skyshrine, lol) areas all the time. Now it's so trivial to get through any area without difficult KOS mobs there's no reason to ask for help.

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thats exactly how I modded skyrim too, and I agree 100%

jilena_sl said:

People want transparency. People want factual data about where their money is going. People want sureties and guarantees that this isn't going to be a repeat of the last time.

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No they don't, if they did the last two presidents wouldn't have been re-elected.

With the inclusion of a KS for Vanguard 2.0 a.k.a. "Pantheon", there should be transparency for those that choose to donate - some idea how the KS money was used. I don't feel cheated by the Mismanagement of Vanguard, wasn't my money, I knew what I purchased and still loved it.

Make cartography a craftable resource. The maps would have to be dynamic, perhaps tied to the cartographer's skill. If the world isn't completely static, updating the in-game craftable maps would offer a better social solution than simply visiting the Pantheon version of EQ Atlas. Always look for the chance to create more interdependency among the player base.

The quality of the system would have to be superior to what an alt-tab to an external map system could offer, of course. Buying maps and updating them from player-created sources should entail smooth integration into the game UI, otherwise no one would use them.

zzeris_sl said:

This was company resources and it cost him a lot when this happened. If it's ok for people to GIVE him the resources, then this shouldn't be a problem. This should not be a discussion point on every other page. KS is all about donations. If you don't want to give, then don't. No explanations needed or really wanted at this point.

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I purchased VG and paid for a sub. That's not just "company resources". I agree with you that it cost him though.

I also don't like this argument as I wouldn't give money to a charity I felt would squander it and not use the money effectively to help who they claim to help.

It would also be one thing if I were talking about 30-50$ donations. I mean really that barely covers dinner for 2 at a non-shitty chain restaurant. Some people are contributing more substantial chunks of cash and simply want a bit more surety that they aren't completely throwing their money away.

I would also say that Kickstarter is not PURELY about donations. Every donation tends to be made with the expectation that you are contributing toward an end goal you find desirable. If the entity receiving the donation cannot meet the end goal and produce the desired result, it's a wasted donation. So if they want me to give them money, they need to assure me they can do what they say.

This shit of DUDE EITHER DONATE MONEY IF YOU WANT IT OR DON'T IF YOU DON'T CARE is not helping them at all. If they want to win the prize they need to woo the people to drop the cash. Encouraging them to half ass it because the vocal few (who will not be enough turn the tide financially) don't give a shit about the details is encouraging them to fail because the vast majority of people willing to drop $1000+ on a video game they hope will succeed also want a little reassurance that their money is genuinely in the right place. I don't think blow jobs for the masses is warranted but at least be organized and professional. *shrug*

Tuco_sl said:

I'm down with that. In Skyrim when I was doing super immersive, dead is dead playthroughs I modded my map so it didn't show my location. I also modded the compass to remove the near location icons and enemy icons. The game world really changes when you stop looking at terrain as just eye candy and start using it to know where you are.

I say this but I'm directionally strong and can use a map. There's a ton of people who can't navigate game worlds for shit. I guess it's part of the socialization of MMOs that's missing. People in EQ used to ask for someone to help guide them through confusing areas (Skyshrine, lol) areas all the time. Now it's so trivial to get through any area without difficult KOS mobs there's no reason to ask for help.

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I was one of those clueless "guide the retard" guys in EQ at first but I got better and so will people thrown into that situation. However I am on the fence about maps.. like having them bought would be cool or quested or w/e.

Mr Creed_sl said:

I feel like that are too many 'systems' already. I'd very much want to keep it simple. I am against instancing that's just a way to to avoid contested content, both on a group and raid level.

However, I see the point that always being the empty-handed second in a race is a frustration on raid groups. One thing to keep in mind is that with a large world the number one raiders cant be everywhere. They take first choice or maybe are efficient enough for second choice too before you rally, but if there is enough content you should get something (bottleneck key mobs are a different topic, keep that shit solo/group only imo).

In addition to that, I think you could introduce enough ways to trigger yourself a raid target, and you dont need to limit it with 'x per week or anything either'. If anyone remembers Silithus you could solo/group farm stuff to summon a multi-group boss there. Put enough like that in alongside normally spawned bosses, so any guild that doesnt get a target on a raid night can go "ok guys the dragon is dead, lets break some seals to fight a demon lord instead". Reflavor as needed. Trigger stuff comes from group content players would do anyway for AA/coin/faction or maybe some solo stuff (Shawl and Ring in Velious being good examples).That way you already have another hook for people outside of raid hours, too.

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I agree on the less systems. I think if the world has enough content that one group cannot keep it on farm forever, that players will make up their own rules. Also, lets be honest, the group on top and the group just behind them getting dickslapped and zero loot are also a pretty small chunk of the population. Even in vanilla WoW with instanced raids there were only a small number of guilds per server who did that shit even though it was open to everyone. I don't think the game has to totally cater to the hardcore or the casual raiding crowd, though I don't feel they should be completely ignored either.

I think if it's just like EQ and there is awesome loot to be found at all levels that you don't flat out out level with silly tier/level based gear the sting of not being on top can also be reduced to a good degree.

Irongut_sl said:

Make cartography a craftable resource. The maps would have to be dynamic, perhaps tied to the cartographer's skill. If the world isn't completely static, updating the in-game craftable maps would offer a better social solution than simply visiting the Pantheon version of EQ Atlas. Always look for the chance to create more interdependency among the player base.

The quality of the system would have to be superior to what an alt-tab to an external map system could offer, of course. Buying maps and updating them from player-created sources should entail smooth integration into the game UI, otherwise no one would use them.

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I love this idea, it would be cool to have map making as your ongoing profession. You could tie it to class too, Rangers are better at mapping large outdoor spaces, Rogue's can map behind locked doors, Magic users can unveil secret magical passages. That'd be awesome.

asocirev_sl said:

No they don't, if they did the last two presidents wouldn't have been re-elected.

With the inclusion of a KS for Vanguard 2.0 a.k.a. "Pantheon", there should be transparency for those that choose to donate - some idea how the KS money was used. I don't feel cheated by the Mismanagement of Vanguard, wasn't my money, I knew what I purchased and still loved it.

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Again I don't think the president is a good analogy for Brad in this context. I also really liked Vanguard and didn't feel cheated in the least. I also have contributed. I may remove my contribution if things don't start becoming more organized and less shitty. As things stand right now there is a high likelihood that even with 5m+ in funding they will not be able to put together a game that isn't shit.

It's just ludicrous that every time anyone points out a lack of credibility or asks a question about negative aspects of the past or of current development that suddenly they are a massive dick for doing so. To me it's perfectly reasonable to question.

Orsenfelt_sl said:

I love this idea, it would be cool to have map making as your ongoing profession. You could tie it to class too, Rangers are better at mapping large outdoor spaces, Rogue's can map behind locked doors, Magic users can unveil secret magical passages. That'd be awesome.

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Could make it a full on profession like Ultima Online. I just don't see how it's not going to be devalued the second the maps hit the internet (and you know they will).

jilena_sl said:

Again I don't think the president is a good analogy for Brad in this context. I also really liked Vanguard and didn't feel cheated in the least. I also have contributed. I may remove my contribution if things don't start becoming more organized and less shitty. As things stand right now there is a high likelihood that even with 5m+ in funding they will not be able to put together a game that isn't shit.

It's just ludicrous that every time anyone points out a lack of credibility or asks a question about negative aspects of the past or of current development that suddenly they are a massive dick for doing so. To me it's perfectly reasonable to question.

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Yea, I don't see what the big deal is either. His record isn't spotless, he ran a company (Sigil) into the ground due to poor management. You read some of the posts on here and it's like the old vanguard thread on FoH, especially in the aftermath of when it launched and the fall of Sigil never happened. We all read those blogs after the fact, it wasn't pretty.

Vandyn_sl said:

Could make it a full on profession like Ultima Online. I just don't see how it's not going to be devalued the second the maps hit the internet (and you know they will).

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Convenience factor (And an in game GPS!!!)

Mr Creed_sl said:

I feel like that are too many 'systems' already. I'd very much want to keep it simple. I am against instancing that's just a way to to avoid contested content, both on a group and raid level.



In addition to that, I think you could introduce enough ways to trigger yourself a raid target, and you dont need to limit it with 'x per week or anything either'. If anyone remembers Silithus you could solo/group farm stuff to summon a multi-group boss there. Put enough like that in alongside normally spawned bosses, so any guild that doesnt get a target on a raid night can go "ok guys the dragon is dead, lets break some seals to fight a demon lord instead". Reflavor as needed. Trigger stuff comes from group content players would do anyway for AA/coin/faction or maybe some solo stuff (Shawl and Ring in Velious being good examples).That way you already have another hook for people outside of raid hours, too.

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Heck, with your game having weird planar intersections, it would even be easy to write into the lore! Instances would actually be mirror planes that collided with X or Y dungeon.Your guild needs to collect components to open them.However, loot that's gotten from there can only remain corporeal when worn (Hence the BoP) and mortal beings can only enter these unstable planes X number of times per week! (Hah)

Yeah, triggering the event is what I was talking about. However, I strongly disagree it wouldn't need to be limited. Remember, the loot scarcity and flatter item progression were keys of EQ, and stated keys of this game. If you allow for unlimited engagement of raid mobs, you also allow for an unlimited flow of loot into the game. And don't for a second think that "well, if it's a long grind then it won't be that much!"--I actually opened the gates on our server (Well, I was the leader of the guild that did.)--people will, and can, do ridiculous things to gain access to mobs.

The whole point of not having instances is, after all, really about creating competition through loot scarcity. If you have a way to circumvent the need for competition, you lose scarcity. Which means you need a loot progression curve more like WoW; because the main point of new content will be to replace old loot (Like it is in WoW). However, in a game with a flatter curve, and scarce items; the main point of a new raid target can actually be a higher availability of the current gear.

For example, if I have a high end raid, and the boss that drops chest plates spawns once a week--that means there are, at most, 48 chest pieces that dropPER YEAR. That means the vast majority of the server will not get a chest piece. Which means I can make up another raid target, and also have him drop chest pieces--and he's still a valuable target, even though he doesn't have a loot upgrade. Why? Because the original source had such a scarcity. (Which, agrees with what you said about offering a lot of content to combat monopolization--but read below for eventual problems with simply creating a huge amount of targets).

The thing is though, that when you add instancing or summoning, your "supply" curve in a typical supply/demand profile is not only affected by time but also by population. Greatly decreasing time until demand is met. This is why controlling how much access each actor within the population has to loot, is so critical for limiting the bad effects of instancing or summoning mobs. (But even this has problems, as Kruegan mentioned earlier--guilds will create alt armies just to have more summons ect. But that can be combated with account wide limitations, I don't know, but ever system has problems).

Mr Creed_sl said:

However, I see the point that always being the empty-handed second in a race is a frustration on raid groups. One thing to keep in mind is that with a large world the number one raiders cant be everywhere. They take first choice or maybe are efficient enough for second choice too before you rally, but if there is enough content you should get something (bottleneck key mobs are a different topic, keep that shit solo/group only imo).

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Yes, you can try to combat monopolization through adding more raid targets/conetent (And this is a good way to reduce scarcity, yes). But remember, we're still trying to maintain the balance between scarcity and availability. You don't want enough raid targets to make the scarcity go away (At least not in the current tier). Right? But if you don't have an absolutely MASSIVE availability, then monopolization becomes much easier--and that gives you accessibility problems like you see on p99 or the progression servers (People even resort to DDOS attacks, it gets so desperate.) I mean, after all--entire real market sectors fall to monopolization, despite millions of other sources of competition and whole governments trying to stop it. It won't be easy to prevent that in a game without breaking the market by making the resources (Loot) too common, heh. (I disagree a top tier guild might only get one or two--especially if raids are set up where all the mobs are in one place, like NTOV ect.)

In essence, if you have too much content, then gear flows in too quickly. There is no competition then--or it becomes what we would call a public goods dilemma in economics. It's hard to form a competitive market over it because access to it is so easy, and ubiquitous. But if you have it limited, monopolization becomes an issue (Which is what we discussed above). I think the best way to land in the middle of these two difficult problems, is to allow for small, discreet amounts of summoning/instances, to alleviate monopolization, while maintaining scarcity.

Edit: Sorry, lots of edits--trying to keep it under 5 pages. heh, economics is kind of my thing, so I love this aspect of competition in games.

jilena_sl said:

Again I don't think the president is a good analogy for Brad in this context. I also really liked Vanguard and didn't feel cheated in the least. I also have contributed. I may remove my contribution if things don't start becoming more organized and less shitty. As things stand right now there is a high likelihood that even with 5m+ in funding they will not be able to put together a game that isn't shit.

It's just ludicrous that every time anyone points out a lack of credibility or asks a question about negative aspects of the past or of current development that suddenly they are a massive dick for doing so. To me it's perfectly reasonable to question.

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I believe the criticism presented in this forum is at least as valuable as the praise, except perhaps for the conspiracy theories. In college, while praise was great for the ego, the criticism was what improved my abilities.

jilena_sl said:

Encouraging them to half ass it because the vocal few (who will not be enough turn the tide financially) don't give a shit about the details is encouraging them to fail....

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So, on this forum and elsewhere pretty much everyone supporting this project who knows about Vanguard has raised concerns. But, by not continuing to raise concerns after Brad has address those concerns, and not continuing to fill every other reply with a rant about accountability, means we're ENCOURAGING them to half-ass the project?!

A rational person raises concerns, gets an answer, and is then cautious.

An irrational person raises concerns, gets an answer, re-raises concerns, gets more answers, raises the same concerns and demands someone be held accountable, starts to get less answers because everyone else has moved the fuck on, and then uses that as proof everyone wants the sky to fall and when it does it's going to be because nobody heard the first concerns you raised the first time!!!

They're as organized and professional as they're going to get with the current team and resources. Use that information to inform your decisions and opinions as you wish. That's what most of us have done, and why the BUT I HAVE CONCERNS and BRAD MUST ACCOUNT FOR THE MISTAKES OF VANGUARD bullshit is getting old.

Cathex_sl said:

I believe the criticism presented in this forum is at least as valuable as the praise, except perhaps for the conspiracy theories. In college, while praise was great for the ego, the criticism was what improved my abilities.

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I especially enjoyed when, months after I'd already completed my first essay and we were on essay number 5, my professors were still harping on that first one! It was really helpful!

We've all given criticism to Brad. What's helpful is when it's criticism on what he's currently doing, not a therapy session so people can deal with the demons that still linger from Vanguard. We've had many years for that. If you're still hung up on Vanguard then you've been doing forum criticizing wrong all these years or might want to seek more than forum therapy.

Ok, back to the KS.

Is anyone bothered by the fact that crafting is set at after PvP, or is the thought that if the game can't make that much (3.5m) then it's probably not going to be released anyway?

Vandyn_sl said:

Ok, back to the KS.

Is anyone bothered by the fact that crafting is set at after PvP, or is the thought that if the game can't make that much (3.5m) then it's probably not going to be released anyway?

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I'm one of the people who think PVP should just be an alternative ruleset server with no attention paid to balance, so yes it's a little annoying to have it 'sooner' than crafting.

Vandyn_sl said:

Ok, back to the KS.

Is anyone bothered by the fact that crafting is set at after PvP, or is the thought that if the game can't make that much (3.5m) then it's probably not going to be released anyway?

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My completely unfounded assumption is that crafting is one of those things expected to get hashed out and funded later on after their site and the project has moved considerably forward (and add-ons are more easily available). Think Star Citizen and Shroud of the Avatar. Again, just pulling that out of my ass so hold your nose while you read it.

Orsenfelt_sl said:

I'm one of the people who think PVP should just be an alternative ruleset server with no attention paid to balance, so yes it's a little annoying to have it 'sooner' than crafting.

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Agreed.

EDIT: Although I have no problems with them working on balancing the way it's been talked about in that recent Q&A. As an alternate rule-set that does not cross over to PvE.

as with any mmo, my interest ultimately begins and for the most part, ends with PvP. so, yeah, tad bit concerned

Vandyn_sl said:

Ok, back to the KS.

Is anyone bothered by the fact that crafting is set at after PvP, or is the thought that if the game can't make that much (3.5m) then it's probably not going to be released anyway?

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I think PvP would draw more people in but I'd rather it be crafting for other aspects of game play.. mainly a large focus on economy. If PvP goes in, I hope it's done like EQ in it's own server with arenas on the PvE server for the hell of it. Them adding PvP down the line would only help the game though.

Vandyn_sl said:

Ok, back to the KS.

Is anyone bothered by the fact that crafting is set at after PvP, or is the thought that if the game can't make that much (3.5m) then it's probably not going to be released anyway?

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I consider, at least, basic crafting to be essential. The crafting stretch goal should be to add greater depth to that.

I don't think PVP is worth it unless a lot of work is put into it. The bastard child PVP of EQ and VG won't even come close to cutting it anymore.