Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Itzena_sl said:

In any game where the ultimate design goal isn't "Punch the players in the dick as hard and as often as possible", the fun EQ classes areridiculouslyoverpowered.

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Jesus, EQ wasn't that difficult. You died, get a 90rez and drive on. Sure, the lower levels sucked before you had this big ass list of cool clerics on it, but your massively overstating the difficulty or "punishing factors" of EQ by about 40 miles.

Elidroth_sl said:

The simplest answer I can think of as to why you rename or come up with a new class name is freedom of change. If you call a class "Paladin", and it isn't the EQ Paladin, the people who are expecting the EQ Paladin will lose their shit! But if you call it Cavalier or Defender or something else, then you have more freedom to change the way the class works.

I worry that a lot of people are expecting Pantheon to just be 'EQ Updated' and not something else. For those people, Brad may be in a no-win situation here.

At least that's how my thinking goes..

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I hope not.. Brad has been clear it would be EQ 1 with a little VG and some new thrown in. He also mentioned tedious shit not being good. SO I never expected to see tedious shit in Pantheon. I'm expecting something more reasonable. It's sad, because I think that's the whole point of this thread going down the shitter. People still don't know what the overall plan is. Hopefully the team is better at relaying that info in the coming weeks.

Merlin_sl said:

Jesus, EQ wasn't that difficult. You died, get a 90rez and drive on. Sure, the lower levels sucked before you had this big ass list of cool clerics on it, but your massively overstating the difficulty or "punishing factors" of EQ by about 40 miles.

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The difficulty was perspective based. For people like yourself, it was easy. For others, it was not. It all depended on who you knew, how powerful they were in the game, were they online and would they come help you out.

Now for people like myself that was not in a big raiding guid back in the early days, I learned to rely on community. I made friends, and helped out in hopes they would help me when I needed it. That being said, I still can remember some nights where I just couldn't get my corpse back, and I would have to wait until the next day to try to get someone to help.

That seven day corpse decay was a real thing for some people.

Utnayan_sl said:

I agree with this.

I think people forget all the things that made EQ horrible.

1) NPC's eating quest objects, some of those quest objects taking months to get because of rare spawns/drops. Without a process of consistent GM help on those issues.

2) Watching horrible Z-Axis pathing bugs be fine in some instances (Dain), but if you exploited them in others (Warders) where it showed content blatantly not finished, the hammer would come down due to the embarrassment caused.

3) Gameplay was horribly stagnant.

4) Some classes during the leveling process would lose all functionality and become summoners/CR retrieval experts/Mana Batteries. Destroying gameplay fun for those classes in it's entirety.

5) Ridiculous bugs (believe it or not, usually caused by just shipping a product that wasn't fully developed) that existed for months. From mobs under the world conglomerating killing folks above, to unfinished loot tables and developer boxes. Just all around, shitty.

Obviously there are a lot more here. Don't get me wrong, still a fun game that I poured a lot of time into, but your statement here said it best:



The first of it's kind in a 1st person open world MMORPG. Once people took advantage of that and actually made a quality game, we saw what happened with those supposedly "market capped at 500k" sub numbers.

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This is true, but you can't really fault the design of EQ because of bugs. Even though many of the best features were emergent gameplay, like kiting, FD pulling, etc they still turned out to be extremely fun gameplay elements.

I don't believe anyone wants the bugs, lost items, or useless classes back man. Folks just want an MMO that doesn't grab you by the dick and pull you from one quest to the next, fluffing you up with full gear for turning in 5 gnoll hide lariats.

I'm no different than the rest though, I went to WoW and loved that shit, working through MC and BWL week after week was fucking amazing. Even wiping was fun running back together as ghosts, trying a different strat and finally winning, getting that full T2 set. Hell yes.

After a while though, it got to be boring. People would just die to travel, AOE everything no CC, flying everywhere, it just wasn't satisfying. You realize that without the risk, where's the thrill? Without the hardships, the victories seem hollow.

Now everything is 10x worse than WoW. Vanilla WoW would be considered hardcore in today's MMO scene. I tried rift and swtor and they were just unbearably generic and boring in every way.

I actually like playing EQ. I mean I enjoy sitting there grinding mobs, charming, mezzing, fear kiting, I could do it for hours on end. It's still fun to me, so I want a modern version of that, along with the slow leveling, exp loss, meaningful travel, the works.

Elidroth_sl said:

I worry that a lot of people are expecting Pantheon to just be 'EQ Updated' and not something else. For those people, Brad may be in a no-win situation here.

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A problem Brad and the rest of VR created.

Quaid_sl said:

Why even argue? At the top end, WoW raiding was (is?) so much more difficult than anything EQ (vanilla - POP) had to offer it's almost laughable to suggest otherwise. Even grouping... There was nothing as challenging as single grouping BRD or UBRS during Vanilla WoW vs early EQ. Hell, even solo quests. Did anyone else do Benediction and Rhokdelar? Shit was pretty intense if you were under geared.

WoW has always been far more difficult than EQ in my experience.

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The point is that people go overboard talking about how casual WoW is. Yes, it predominantly caters to casuals because that's the biggest audience you can get, so you stand to make the most money. That being said, you can choose to be every bit as hardcore in WoW as anyone ever was in EQ.

I don't know about some of you, but I think the raiding has got ridiculously difficult to the point of absurdity in modern MMO's. There is so many "got yas!" now its just stupid. I realize the "tank and spank" raids got boring but some of the shit they have nowadays is fucking retarded.

"zone in. everyone has to be on the 4 pillars in 8 seconds. If you do it in 7 or 9, the raid wipes.
Pillars rise, every 2 seconds one player is "tagged" and has to leave the pillar or the raid wipes
mob come in room. If he goes left you must all be on pillars 2&4. If he goes right you must be on pillars 1&3 or the raid wipes.
You must have 10k fire resist for the first mob, disease resist for the second and cold resist for the 3rd. If one player misses the 30 second timer for gear change, the raid wipes.....

I'm all for creativity, but the way they do raids now is not fun and just frustrating.

Tuco_sl said:

Super difficult raids are a non-issue when easy-mode raids get gear that's 75% as good as the hard mode raids.

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That is really the crux of the issue. Gameplay mechanics aside, it's impossible to create an identity for yourself. When everyone is special, nobody is.

Merlin_sl said:

I don't know about some of you, but I think the raiding has got ridiculously difficult to the point of absurdity in modern MMO's. There is so many "got yas!" now its just stupid. I realize the "tank and spank" raids got boring but some of the shit they have nowadays is fucking retarded.

"zone in. everyone has to be on the 4 pillars in 8 seconds. If you do it in 7 or 9, the raid wipes.
Pillars rise, every 2 seconds one player is "tagged" and has to leave the pillar or the raid wipes
mob come in room. If he goes left you must all be on pillars 2&4. If he goes right you must be on pillars 1&3 or the raid wipes.
You must have 10k fire resist for the first mob, disease resist for the second and cold resist for the 3rd. If one player misses the 30 second timer for gear change, the raid wipes.....

I'm all for creativity, but the way they do raids now is not fun and just frustrating.

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Completely agree!

Khane_sl said:

It always seemed like a lot of people cared about the lore in EQ. I certainly did (until Luclin). And which God you chose to follow actually had an effect on your interaction with the world...
I don't understand when people say they want an engaging, living, immersive world and then follow up with "who gives a fuck about lore". Really?

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People are right that you need a game first before lore can sweeten it up, but in the end for me at least its one of the deciding factors.

Finally caught up with the last days of this rollercoaster. Nice to see that some of the '14ers dont suck completely, too bad that there is nothing really positive regarding the game we're hoping to come out of this. I'm still in but I did divert some of my pledge to Georgeson.

Quaid, class mix should be two per role, that worked for Noah. Their list needs a second CC. Frost elementalist, Trapper, spin the flavor how you like but only one pure CC class is repeating one of the pitfalls of EQ that we dont really have to repeat.

Habakkuk_sl said:

Trathos came here with good intentions and was met with hostility and rudeness. I didn't expect it would be much different for me.

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Just let it wash over you man, the jaded masses are frothy after just being dealt bad news.

I still have faith, get 800k and rub it in all their faces.

EQ was difficult in the sense that it was punishing. Failure resulted in significant setbacks. There was potential for catastrophic setbacks (corpse rot, deleveling). That was the risk. For me, the reward came in the form of greater intensity. At times, my heart pounded. I felt real fear. Real harrow. Real dismay. I felt pressure. And it felt great to overcome that.

Easy games are those with unlimited continues and no direct competition whatsoever.

Merlin_sl said:

I don't know about some of you, but I think the raiding has got ridiculously difficult to the point of absurdity in modern MMO's. There is so many "got yas!" now its just stupid. I realize the "tank and spank" raids got boring but some of the shit they have nowadays is fucking retarded.

"zone in. everyone has to be on the 4 pillars in 8 seconds. If you do it in 7 or 9, the raid wipes.
Pillars rise, every 2 seconds one player is "tagged" and has to leave the pillar or the raid wipes
mob come in room. If he goes left you must all be on pillars 2&4. If he goes right you must be on pillars 1&3 or the raid wipes.
You must have 10k fire resist for the first mob, disease resist for the second and cold resist for the 3rd. If one player misses the 30 second timer for gear change, the raid wipes.....

I'm all for creativity, but the way they do raids now is not fun and just frustrating.

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"You don't like MMO musical chairs and MMO DDR? WTF, your gear score must be too low lololol!"

Yeah, that shit sucks.

Bilbo Faggins_sl said:

Ok I loled at that. Being overpowered (even ridiculously) is something that EQ made you earn. After you put the time and effort in to gaining that right, you damn well better bet you enjoyed it.

I played a necromancer as my main character in Vanguard all the way to the end game, and even after I put all that time and effort in to the character, I **NEVER** felt epic, over powered, or even a tiny bit powerful. I always felt like any mob no matter how insignificant could fuck me up. I'd go help low level friends, and get my ass handed to me in low level dungeons thanks to the stupid ass DOT system they had in play. So very stupid.

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List the abilities of an EQ necro, and then apply them to a game where the average world mob doesn't have significantly more hp than equivalent level PCs.

Merlin_sl said:

Jesus, EQ wasn't that difficult. You died, get a 90rez and drive on. Sure, the lower levels sucked before you had this big ass list of cool clerics on it, but your massively overstating the difficulty or "punishing factors" of EQ by about 40 miles.

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I never said EQ was difficult, I just said it liked punching players in the dick. They are, delusions of "tedious = hard" aside,notthe same thing.

lysis_sl said:

Real harrow.

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Yep, feeling it now, watching this Kickstarter.

Convo_sl said:

I hope not.. Brad has been clear it would be EQ 1 with a little VG and some new thrown in. He also mentioned tedious shit not being good. SO I never expected to see tedious shit in Pantheon. I'm expecting something more reasonable. It's sad, because I think that's the whole point of this thread going down the shitter. People still don't know what the overall plan is. Hopefully the team is better at relaying that info in the coming weeks.

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If you are expecting no tedium in Pantheon, you can't expect it to be like EQ. This is exactly the no-win situation Elidroth is talking about.

Has this thing received $1000 all day? I forgot what the total was this morning.

Merlin_sl said:

Has this thing received $1000 all day? I forgot what the total was this morning.

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$3500 today

Arden_sl said:

If you are expecting no tedium in Pantheon, you can't expect it to be like EQ. This is exactly the no-win situation Elidroth is talking about.

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To be clear.. no, I don't want tedious.. I do expect it to be somewhat like EQ, since Brad said it would.. That's not the part I would ask for.