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Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
- Thread starter gogojira_sl
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I agree the fact if the matter is this game is never going to be able to fully replicate the feel that EQ had.
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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So instead it should be like Everquest, where each new tier is...wait for it...just a little bit better than the previous?
That's what he's pitched it as though. That's the very message that sent this thread into a frenzy. Pantheon is supposed to be more EQ than anything else by his own words.
Didn't he actually say something % wise listing EQ and VG and lean heavily to it being like EQ ?
Its a nearly impossible goal. You cannot eliminate tedium, but at the same time increase the time players have between mobs to socialize. Tedium can be a positive thing. It forces people to slow down a bit and smell the roses. Maybe SHOCK, talk to other players etc...When you remove tedium(defined as anything that prevents you from continuing with what you were doing or "this is boring"), you end up racing from place to place to place with no restraints on your time. Tedium. I don't want to camp the keys. I don't want to take the time to get flagged. I don't want to wait for a rez. I don't want to get flagged for the zone. I don't want to quest for a water breathing earring. I don't want to spend 3 hours to ding. I don't want to run back to my corpse etc...These can all be defined as tedious. But they are critical to reestablishing some sort of actual community in the game. Some actual socializing. If you do not want to do anything tedious, I present to you....well........every single MMORPG released in the last 5 years. They all tried it, and failed. Which leads us back here praying to god Brad doesn't fuck this up.
Yes, I won't bother digging through pages and pages of threads but he made a specific reference to how much more EQ this was than VG.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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He said, A little VG, a little new and a lot EQ1. Who knows what that means..
Twitter / Aradune: @Ever_Cae @CoreyGLeFever ...
That doesn't mean people should expect, ball crushing tedium lol
EQ Paladins were absolute dog shit, they were literally the worst class in the game for like 3 years straight. How can you honestly say that compares at all to WoWs paladin who was a really unique class and could do some amazing things.
Even just looking at WoW Paladins there have been about 10 distinct versions of that paladin that all play very differently. Some more fun than others. And thats also a good example of why coming out and saying hey we will have Paladins is almost no info.
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
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I don't think he was talking about progression. I think he was talking about how difficulty is meaningless without scarcity. Its the core of Capitalism vs Communism, really. Can you makedifficultyworthwhile if the reward is easily obtainable by everyone? I And I think the answer is--there is always a small population that will do something JUST because it's hard. But rewarding people inspires a much larger population. However, rewards only work if they are wanted, and scarcity produces desire (Thanks evolutionary biology.) And there is scarcity in everything, including recognition. However, if you remove scarcity through your mechanic to combat inaccessibility of difficult content, then you remove a big impetus to do harder content. I think the trick is to increase accessibility without reducing scarcity of the trophies the encounter provides. I think EQ might have stumbled onto this, but it was never refined in the next generation (WoW chose another path--and I'm not saying it was a "bad" path, WoW is a great game. But there was another path, I think.)
To understand that, everyone really needs to understand the nature of EQ's difficulty, which was more social/strategic in nature, and less about the tactical execution. EQ fights were easier than WoW's easy mode, but you needed a lot of people to overcome the numbers. The difficult was mainly then laid on guild leadership, to organize and have the supplies (people, proper class numbers, proper amount of each specific classes utility) in order to engage. While in WoW, it's really a very low strategic goal (since every class has redundancies and a limited buff scope) but a very high tactical one--which places all the difficulty on the individual to do better within the fight. (And lets face it--how often is someone going to get significantly better at a game? Not very often. That's why derp modes were added.)
The main strength of strategic difficulty was you didn't need to redesign loot just to make a "derp switch" so more casual players could see encounters. There was a natural and organic way to just make the encounters easier--bring more people, bring more supplies of a certain mechanic. The trade off wasn't "red colored Tier 10 armor with 20% less stats"--it was just the fact that you got less items. But those items didn't mark you as having beaten the encounter on retard mode--if you got an item by zerging, it was still the same trophy the best player got.
I think a game that bridges the gap between WoW's tactical difficulty and EQ's strategic/Social difficulty? Will be the next big thing. WoW's vanilla came really close to that, I feel like.
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It's amazing how deep in thought some of you guys are over a class that's never going to see the light of day. While I agree talking about class details and shit is good as is the death penalties, daytime and nighttime, each of every of these topics are interesting enough to dive into but there is no game to put them in. There is no game, there is no plan, there is no goal other than getting some cash from Kickstarter.
We really would be better served starting a new thread "The Ideal MMO" where we sit down and come up with a solid foundation in which to build an MMO and fund our own fucking Kickstarter than to debate on the classes in Brads world which is only a mixture of what's in his head and some scribbles on a Denny's napkin.
I think the tool they need to use to accomplish that is WoWs flex raiding system. it should scale the encounters based on the number of people you bring so that above a certain threshold the encounter stops scaling up but loot chance per person starts going down. Its really the perfect system for allowing large raids again.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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No we wouldn't. We all have very different ideas of what would be our ideal MMO so these discussions only really work when we're slamming or contrasting a third party mmo. The more hypothetical that third party mmo the better.
So people only following this thread here ya go:
Creator Visionary Realms, Inc. 10 minutes ago
Hey all,
Just wanted to drop a line to say hello and thanks for all of your pledge, also to please have patience. We have many more class updates left and you never know what they will be like. While we are using games like EQ, FF11, and VG as inspiration that does not mean that we are just copying and pasting them into our game. The lore in our game is very different and it is the foundation for some of the ideas we have come up with. We want Pantheon to have its own identity and I think that will become more and more apparent as more information is released.
Sal
There is still bitching about no warrior class going on in the comments for reference.
Creator Visionary Realms, Inc. 10 minutes ago
Hey all,
Just wanted to drop a line to say hello and thanks for all of your pledge, also to please have patience. We have many more class updates left and you never know what they will be like. While we are using games like EQ, FF11, and VG as inspiration that does not mean that we are just copying and pasting them into our game. The lore in our game is very different and it is the foundation for some of the ideas we have come up with. We want Pantheon to have its own identity and I think that will become more and more apparent as more information is released.
Sal
There is still bitching about no warrior class going on in the comments for reference.
Salim's comments show they still haven't gotten anyone who knows Kickstarter on the team.
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
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Yes, I agree. Reward players who want to do the hard mode with much faster gear acquisition. You want it to be easy? Fine, bring a bigger army. But you'll get less gear per person. This way, the actual trophies people win won't be diminished. Someone has theTooth of the world killer wyrm? Everyone knows they did the Old Wyrm encounter. Whether by the social/charismatic difficulty of leading a big army (Or being part of a well functioning large guild), or by skill of leading a crack force they have that awesome weapon that very few people will also have--because scarcity has been maintained by not allowing everyone to get that weapon through an "easy" button. And so the lure of that weapon, it's value in "wealth" (In all it's forms) is maintained. It's not cheapened by cheap knock off discolored versions.
I think that unity in item scarcity, is a big thing missing from modern WoW. People like being unique--but more than that, people like the CHANCE to be unique. Even if the odds are completely against them--just look at how many people play the lottery even though it's a reverse tax. You don't need to give everyone everything--you just need to give them the chance to get it in ways that don't cheapen how someone else got theirs. (So again, trading one form of difficulty, tactical for another, strategic).
Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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See it's this kind of waffling comments that frustrate me... Essentially a line like "you never know what they will be" means we are going to try to throw you something different because we messed up on our other ideas. Not to mention they are drawing inspiration from FFXI? I liked FFXI but why is someone like McQuaid and this team even drawing inspiration? They say they are not copying and pasting but now i'm going to be drawing comparisons because it's in my mind. To me, from a marketing perspective, if you are going to name drop, you name drop people like Tolkein or maybe D&D stuff. Things that are not "out there" .... They are clouding their own vision. Maybe this is nit picking but the only thing I picture is a bunch of guys looking at already existing ideas (granted it is probably impossible not to) but make me think you are the creative gods of the universe. Lead me to believe that its never been done and if it has you have improved upon to to where the existing idea is unrecognizable.
This like me coming out with a new soda and saying, well, we've been looking at Pepsi and Coke and we think we you'll like it. NO.. you say we have something awesome, cool, and new and it tastes great, like nothing you've ever tasted and you'll love it! Give me money!
This like me coming out with a new soda and saying, well, we've been looking at Pepsi and Coke and we think we you'll like it. NO.. you say we have something awesome, cool, and new and it tastes great, like nothing you've ever tasted and you'll love it! Give me money!