Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,093
312
There are several solutions that I prefer. One is random loot drops. If gear isn't the primary goal, then decent loot spread out over the world is just fine. A game that doesn't emphasize +gooder doesn't need a constant loot pi?ata everywhere with competitive stats. Decent stats are ok until you get into top areas like all games. Have a few items drop off raid bosses, world bosses,etc. Have very few off dungeon bosses. Slow the loot pi?ata down and encourage the grouping for top gear. Bots don't group so they have to try and corner the tradeskill market, get lucky, or find other forms of schemes. Slow loot drops keeps the top 10% from getting too powerful too quickly. Will these players get bored? Probably but they always do. They will still do high end stuff if it's kept interesting.
Botters just make their own groups and use illegal programs to run and automate the entire group. There are programs out there that can do that in every game.

I do like the idea of spreading loot out. But there is something to be said about finding out which mob drops which item so you can focus your hunt for the item you're looking for.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
I think the "where/how does the loot drop" discussion is not doing WoW justice. If you take all greens out of Vanilla WoW and add respawns/PH/remove instancing in dungeons, you have a loot setup thats not too different from EQ. Some rare world drops, lots of nameds in contested dungeons with specific items, a mix of good and bad loot on those nameds. As a bonus crafting seems like a worthwhile task too. At least you usually kill stuff to wear whatever you grab off their corpses instead of being a pure token/gold farm like GW2.

The biggest difference in newer vs older games is the frequency of loot drops, and that could use some reducing for sure. WoW is old by now and not even that bad, the amount of blues and greens you get in an hour in GW2 is staggering and nobody wears that, it's all sold/salvaged.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
You know I figured we would know at least a little more about Brad's project by now.
rrr_img_51407.jpg
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
8,312
10,290
I mean the point is yourememberthat loot to this day, even if it was worthless.
The essence of the problem is that mistakes are what you remember. If you take Magic the Gathering, everyone agrees that Black Lotus, the Moxen, or even the dual Lands were errors that shouldn't have existed. Yet, they're what makes MtG a legend, even among the people who don't play it much. I mean, you get mainstream sites picking up on the fact that people pay 27,000$ for a Black Lotus (beta).

If your game system is good and all that, no one remembers it.
 

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
<Gold Donor>
20,299
86,103
Botters just make their own groups and use illegal programs to run and automate the entire group. There are programs out there that can do that in every game.

I do like the idea of spreading loot out. But there is something to be said about finding out which mob drops which item so you can focus your hunt for the item you're looking for.
That's why EQ's tank and spank bosses just won't cut it now. If you make the dungeons and bosses a certain way, it becomes more of botters just being paid players than loot magnets. That probably still will bring in money but there's little the designers can do at that point. You can still find out what boss drops what. Just make it less common of an occurrence. I don't think really good items should drop very frequently. I don't want WoW raids where everyone must have a certain level of gear to compete. It makes the game all about the gear. I much prefer gigantic numbers of players fighting massive world bosses. Everyone wins, it's epic, and there's a lot less loot(hopefully).

Edit: I would also far prefer the drops to be tradeskill items. Lets say a gigantic dragon is felled by a group of 60 in a premier guild. Have maybe 3 pieces of gear drop from his war-chest, and make the rest of it trade-skill goods. Dragon hide for armor, shields, alchemy. Claws for weapons and alchemy. Blood for alchemy, quests,etc. Make the dragon one part of a massive quest chain, it's body a usable tradeskill good, and it's loot chest a rare reward of visible prowess.
 

Byr

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
3,802
5,421
That's why EQ's tank and spank bosses just won't cut it now. If you make the dungeons and bosses a certain way, it becomes more of botters just being paid players than loot magnets. That probably still will bring in money but there's little the designers can do at that point. You can still find out what boss drops what. Just make it less common of an occurrence. I don't think really good items should drop very frequently. I don't want WoW raids where everyone must have a certain level of gear to compete. It makes the game all about the gear. I much prefer gigantic numbers of players fighting massive world bosses. Everyone wins, it's epic, and there's a lot less loot(hopefully).
that may have worked back in EQ but now populations are big enough that every time a world boss spawns, players zerg it, everyone is at 1 fps and starts clipping everything usually including the boss they are trying to fight.
 

Oloh_sl

shitlord
298
0
There is a lot more but its hard to find. I've seen Oloh on this forum a few times, I bet he has a lot of info stored away somewhere because he managed to get in to the early alpha/f+f stages and he was one of the few people allowed to do writups of the game that early.
The VG Friends and Family Alpha combat was very unique and hasn't been done in an MMO since, even in any of the scores of FTP smaller titles. It was target based and you are right, it felt a bit like a TCG sorta, where the time you had to play your "card" was the attack speed of your weapon. So, if you had a huge 2her sword, you would swing every like 1.5 seconds or so, and queue your action that went off at the end. If you queued nothing up, you auto attacked. If you used an ability, it would execute at the end of your swing timer. Certain abilities would clip the attack timer to give additional gameplay, and certain abilities, specifically reactive abilities, could overwrite previously queued actions. So, basically, in WoW terms, you would mortal strike, wait for it to execute and then based on what the monster did (they had tells that showed you what they were doing), you could change it during the "swing timer" to react real time. It was strategic and fun and totally unique.

I loved the VG combat at the time, but that being said, I feel that the genre has moved significantly since then. I've played almost every MMO released since VG until now, and I am confident that the "next big thing" will not use a system like VG had (or WoW has), but instead will use a TERA style combat system. TERA's combat needs a dose of heavy iteration to be perfect, but the building blocks are all right there. There are a lot of subtleties with TERA's system that almost ensures a bunch of companies will mess it up trying to tinker with hit, but the one that puts the time in to get it right will have something special.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
The VG Friends and Family Alpha combat was very unique and hasn't been done in an MMO since, even in any of the scores of FTP smaller titles. It was target based and you are right, it felt a bit like a TCG sorta, where the time you had to play your "card" was the attack speed of your weapon. So, if you had a huge 2her sword, you would swing every like 1.5 seconds or so, and queue your action that went off at the end. If you queued nothing up, you auto attacked. If you used an ability, it would execute at the end of your swing timer. Certain abilities would clip the attack timer to give additional gameplay, and certain abilities, specifically reactive abilities, could overwrite previously queued actions. So, basically, in WoW terms, you would mortal strike, wait for it to execute and then based on what the monster did (they had tells that showed you what they were doing), you could change it during the "swing timer" to react real time. It was strategic and fun and totally unique.

I loved the VG combat at the time, but that being said, I feel that the genre has moved significantly since then. I've played almost every MMO released since VG until now, and I am confident that the "next big thing" will not use a system like VG had (or WoW has), but instead will use a TERA style combat system. TERA's combat needs a dose of heavy iteration to be perfect, but the building blocks are all right there. There are a lot of subtleties with TERA's system that almost ensures a bunch of companies will mess it up trying to tinker with hit, but the one that puts the time in to get it right will have something special.
I played TERA briefly and did recall aiming a bit although it has been a long time.. How do you think this combat system works for magic ? Aiming spells or ? In all the action games I have seen Magic has suffered imo and I wonder if there is a way to make it work. ( even if they left magic alone and used action for melee/ranged non magic it may work ).

thoughts ?
 

Oloh_sl

shitlord
298
0
I played TERA briefly and did recall aiming a bit although it has been a long time.. How do you think this combat system works for magic ? Aiming spells or ? In all the action games I have seen Magic has suffered imo and I wonder if there is a way to make it work. ( even if they left magic alone and used action for melee/ranged non magic it may work ).
This is a derail, so I won't go too far into it, but in TERA, the combat, for magic, ranged and melee, works as follows:

1. Melee is nothing new, it is basically an untargeted, directional PB AoE.

2. Archery is also Easy, its standard FPS stuff with a slightly delayed travel time.

3. Magic is the hardest, but works in one of three ways: (1) lock on (you click a button while hovered over the person to "lock" that target, then click again to execute the ability for what is, in effect, a temporary, one spell target...this works best for beneficial spells and certain damage spells like DoTs, (2) like the wow mage Blizzard effect and league of legends effects, but while you are casting the spell (and standing still) an AoE template comes up that you place on the map. When the casting time is finished, the effect goes off at the targeted location, or (3) the same way as melee (for spells like cone of cold) and archery (for spells like magic missile).

All of the above is pretty common for the action RPGs out there, but the thing that TERA did differently, which is 100% the right way to go (although it needs cleaned up through massive Blizzard style iteration) is to tie strategic movement into ability usage. Generally speaking, you slow the game's default movement down a little relative to like WoW, then add strategic things like animation lock (ie, you cant move for 1 second while your fireball animation is going on), automatic movement (a warrior's spammable cleave ability lunges him a little bit forward) and real time collisions (so a paladin can use his shield to block an arrow for a priest that is standing behind him) to add depth to the base system. This latter part is where most Action RPGs fall short, because there are a ton of subtleties there that really impact the full picture and it takes a lot of work to get it to feel really good. TERA did the best of any game so far at working through all of it, but it still needs a lot of work to make it so the action combat is also very strategic, but not clunky. In all games right now, its like (1) Active, (2) Strategic, (3) Smooth...pick two. Wow is strategic and smooth, but not active. Guild wars 2 (along with almost all action RPGs) is active and smooth but not very strategic. TERA is Active and Strategic, but not very smooth, etc.

Just my two cents. Sorry for the derail.
 

Valderen

Space Pirate
<Bronze Donator>
4,547
2,774
I know I'm in the minority here, but I found TERA's combat fairly boring. The only time it was fun was when doing BAMs, and I attribute more to the challenge BAMs represented than actual combat mechanics. Even those became a boring routine after a while with no danger except making a mistake out of boredom.

I hated the fact that all damage could be avoided if you were skilled, since at some point you just stop taking damage, and there's no risk anymore.

This was mostly as a Lancer though, did play Berserker too, and warrior. Maybe the experience was different as a caster/range class.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
Getting the hopes for a timely delivery of, well, anything crushed before starting the project might not be the worst move. How about a blank Kickstarter page with the image of a cloth cap until January or so, for old time's sake.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,782
8,267
Getting the hopes for a timely delivery of, well, anything crushed before starting the project might not be the worst move. How about a blank Kickstarter page with the image of a cloth cap until January or so, for old time's sake.
wait wait... I think I know what will work.

*ahem*

You have 14 Days. If after that time the Kickstarter is not properly posted, I am deleting my bookmarks, and removing you from Twitter. The rest of rerolled.org will follow suit, as will several other neckbeards and people that play Project 99.
 

Treesong

Bronze Knight of the Realm
362
29
I am looking forward to this Kickstarter, if only because I am curious how well it will do, how many and what people will flock to it, and to see what kind of deals they have. Being part of a 30-day Kickstarter that you believe in (or where you are buying into the hype, if your prefer it called that) can be a lot of fun. Lots of bonding, hyping, anticipating and spending money, which are all good fun.

A Brad McQuaid kickstarter in particular should be fun. I have no hopes myself that the game itself will be anything I am interested in, but that's ok: I am still playing his first MMO.

My advice for a RPG/MMO kickstarter would be: make it so that any tier above 10 dollars will get you physical stuff, next to the "digital promises". Stuff like miniatures, posters, T-shirts, a bronze coin, a signed handkerchief, whatever. People love to justify their pledges by telling themselves that they "at least get their pledges worth of physical stuff".

Having said this, you still have to have faith that the phyiscal stuff will actuallly be delivered. Also, Star Citizen Online seems to do *very* well with just Digital Promises......