Since they are planning to charge a subscription they really don't need a huge number of players for the game to be profitable. If they can get 50,000 people to subscribe at $15/month they would have make $9 million in the first year. 50,000 subscribers doesn't sound that farfetched if they can deliver a quality product.
Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
- Thread starter gogojira_sl
- Start date
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Laura
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 582
- 109
I would buy a game like Pantheon if it's available. However, I would never give money to a shady kickstarter campaigns like this. In fact, I convinced my friends to take out their pledges because the whole thing was fishy.
I believe there are many people like me who would love to play a game like Pantheon but are not stupid enough to fall for Brad's pipe-dream. Hence, the argument of "AHA! This is a proof that there's no market for this type of game." is flawed.
There's NO market for crappy kickstarter campaigns; that's the moral of the story.
Oh, and Brad's Pantheon Website is just... amusing? in a sad sadistic way. *shivers*
I believe there are many people like me who would love to play a game like Pantheon but are not stupid enough to fall for Brad's pipe-dream. Hence, the argument of "AHA! This is a proof that there's no market for this type of game." is flawed.
There's NO market for crappy kickstarter campaigns; that's the moral of the story.
Oh, and Brad's Pantheon Website is just... amusing? in a sad sadistic way. *shivers*
Regime
LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...
- 16,853
- 39,976
I .. Dunno what to say except watch the fuck out with this guy.
He'll drink you clean!
Purposely haven't posted this the last few weeks. Figured everyone deserves a second chance. But given the total mismanagement of the KS and the project so far it looks like nothing has changed.
This is from an insider at Verant/SoE back in 2001 :
Anyone who played the MUD Sojourn knows how totally EQ1 was a rip off of it - even entire cities like Freeport. Not so commonly known is that EQ was in danger of being closed down by the Diku mud guys because they knew the game design was copied and believed swathes of the MUD source code was ripped off from them. In the end they let it go after some 'under the table' agreements and some signed documents :
We know what happened with Vanguard.
eg From someone who ran Vanguard sites and blogs for years and had significant access to the company :
I'd love to see Brad put another game out but the way he is chasing money from people right now is wrong.
This is from an insider at Verant/SoE back in 2001 :
Prior to 1996, he had developed a shareware RPG in his spare time, and he played the hell out of a popular DIKUmud set in D&D's Forgotten Realms called Sojourn. In 1996, he was in the right place at the right time, and seized the oppurtunity to create a graphical version of his favorite MUD. After years of work with a huge team, with a huge budget, with a huge fanfare, Everquest was released in 1999. It made a gazillion dollars and is still raking in the cash hand over fist this very day.
Things weren't coming up roses at 989/redeye/verant. Brad himself had basically done no work whatsoever since Everquest's release, and many (including Kelly Flock) think he didn't do anything *before* its release. Brad thought of himself as infallible, and Everquest's incredible success, his millions, and his ferrari were all proof of his greatness. Being crowned a "Game @#%$" by PC Gamer didn't help either. His self-aggrandizement cannibalized Verant's customer relations for its entire existance. He insisted on being the sole point of contact with the public to promote his own name, and he did a miserable job.
Just this past week, he released Luclin screenshots without authorization and got incredibly defensive when SOE PR got upset. He sent out an email with a smarmy "I've been doing this for years, and the fact is that the screenshots were fine, people just hate change." His first hire for player relations, Gordon Wrinn, was, unbelievably enough, worse.
But people don't, as a rule, get fired from Verant. They quit. Like the lead graphics programmer, who quit a week after Everquest shipped. And his replacement, Brian Hook, who quit in disgust mere months after being hired. Then another EQ programmer left. And another. Then many others asked to be moved off the team.
(edit: as of today, SOE is beginning a round of layoffs. SOE is losing money. This is probably due more to the advertising crash than the pushed-back release dates, though.)
Smedley thinks everybody's happy because Verant had a low turnover. Even though everybody there is miserable, even the staff artists are making $125k/year and can't find a better job elsewhere.
Some were "promoted" off the team. Like Brad McQuaid. He was moved because they were "borderline ready to revolt". They "hated Brad so much they wanted to puke and constantly bitched about him." Now the EQ Live team is "busy hating Jeff Butler with a passion". Butler is a "major Brad lackey". The factions are split "more like 90:10 on the hate Brad/Jeff vs. like Brad/Jeff side. It was BAD." He is "so hated at Verant that out of a team of 60 people less than 10 would go with him. Probably closer to 5."
Note the quotemarks.
So anyway, Everquest made money like crazy, and Flock admitted his mistake. SOE bought out Verant for a tidy sum and Flock accepted Brad because he thought he was "part of the magic". Today he admitted his mistake. Sony Pictures (SOE's parent company) looked at the balance sheet, and Brad's salary, and the fact that titles kept getting pushed back. They essentially accused Smedley and Brad of lying to them about Verant's condition before the purchase, mainly the ship dates for Sovereign, EQ2, SWG, and Planetside. None of these games will ship before 2003, mostly through gross mismanagement.
Sovereign, for example, is Smed's baby. Smedley is Executive Producer on the project, and the producer is his lackey. The producer has absolutely no experience whatsoever in management. He's a former QA tester, 22 years old. The lead programmer is talented but anal and non-decisive. They already sacked the former lead programmer and two designers. The problem is really Smed, but he'll never admit it.
Anyway, Sony Pictures @#%$ itself, and Kelly Flock, who never liked Brad, feels the heat. In the meeting yesterday, Kelly says "Okay guys, this is @#%$, what the @#%$ are you doing?!" Brad and Smed get flustered, some words are thrown around, accusations are made of Brad being a no-talent weenie, and Brad decides on the spot to leave.
When SOE bought Verant, they gave both Smed and Brad three year contracts. Sony Pictures and Kelly Flock were *so* incensed at the cluster!$!% that is Verant that they basically said "@#%$ it guys, you wanna leave, fine, we need to clean up this mess and you're not going to be much help."
Verant as an entity, much like Origin, no longer exists. It's been disassembled and absorbed into Sony Online Entertainment.
The EQ live and EQ2 teams are in shock. Nobody knew that Brad was going to leave. They heard about it the same time you did.
Things weren't coming up roses at 989/redeye/verant. Brad himself had basically done no work whatsoever since Everquest's release, and many (including Kelly Flock) think he didn't do anything *before* its release. Brad thought of himself as infallible, and Everquest's incredible success, his millions, and his ferrari were all proof of his greatness. Being crowned a "Game @#%$" by PC Gamer didn't help either. His self-aggrandizement cannibalized Verant's customer relations for its entire existance. He insisted on being the sole point of contact with the public to promote his own name, and he did a miserable job.
Just this past week, he released Luclin screenshots without authorization and got incredibly defensive when SOE PR got upset. He sent out an email with a smarmy "I've been doing this for years, and the fact is that the screenshots were fine, people just hate change." His first hire for player relations, Gordon Wrinn, was, unbelievably enough, worse.
But people don't, as a rule, get fired from Verant. They quit. Like the lead graphics programmer, who quit a week after Everquest shipped. And his replacement, Brian Hook, who quit in disgust mere months after being hired. Then another EQ programmer left. And another. Then many others asked to be moved off the team.
(edit: as of today, SOE is beginning a round of layoffs. SOE is losing money. This is probably due more to the advertising crash than the pushed-back release dates, though.)
Smedley thinks everybody's happy because Verant had a low turnover. Even though everybody there is miserable, even the staff artists are making $125k/year and can't find a better job elsewhere.
Some were "promoted" off the team. Like Brad McQuaid. He was moved because they were "borderline ready to revolt". They "hated Brad so much they wanted to puke and constantly bitched about him." Now the EQ Live team is "busy hating Jeff Butler with a passion". Butler is a "major Brad lackey". The factions are split "more like 90:10 on the hate Brad/Jeff vs. like Brad/Jeff side. It was BAD." He is "so hated at Verant that out of a team of 60 people less than 10 would go with him. Probably closer to 5."
Note the quotemarks.
So anyway, Everquest made money like crazy, and Flock admitted his mistake. SOE bought out Verant for a tidy sum and Flock accepted Brad because he thought he was "part of the magic". Today he admitted his mistake. Sony Pictures (SOE's parent company) looked at the balance sheet, and Brad's salary, and the fact that titles kept getting pushed back. They essentially accused Smedley and Brad of lying to them about Verant's condition before the purchase, mainly the ship dates for Sovereign, EQ2, SWG, and Planetside. None of these games will ship before 2003, mostly through gross mismanagement.
Sovereign, for example, is Smed's baby. Smedley is Executive Producer on the project, and the producer is his lackey. The producer has absolutely no experience whatsoever in management. He's a former QA tester, 22 years old. The lead programmer is talented but anal and non-decisive. They already sacked the former lead programmer and two designers. The problem is really Smed, but he'll never admit it.
Anyway, Sony Pictures @#%$ itself, and Kelly Flock, who never liked Brad, feels the heat. In the meeting yesterday, Kelly says "Okay guys, this is @#%$, what the @#%$ are you doing?!" Brad and Smed get flustered, some words are thrown around, accusations are made of Brad being a no-talent weenie, and Brad decides on the spot to leave.
When SOE bought Verant, they gave both Smed and Brad three year contracts. Sony Pictures and Kelly Flock were *so* incensed at the cluster!$!% that is Verant that they basically said "@#%$ it guys, you wanna leave, fine, we need to clean up this mess and you're not going to be much help."
Verant as an entity, much like Origin, no longer exists. It's been disassembled and absorbed into Sony Online Entertainment.
The EQ live and EQ2 teams are in shock. Nobody knew that Brad was going to leave. They heard about it the same time you did.
Anyone who played the MUD Sojourn knows how totally EQ1 was a rip off of it - even entire cities like Freeport. Not so commonly known is that EQ was in danger of being closed down by the Diku mud guys because they knew the game design was copied and believed swathes of the MUD source code was ripped off from them. In the end they let it go after some 'under the table' agreements and some signed documents :
We know what happened with Vanguard.
eg From someone who ran Vanguard sites and blogs for years and had significant access to the company :
I can't believe that the CEO of the company can't make an appearance at his own company for 4 or 5 months if to do nothing more than lend moral support. I have heard that Brad is worthless for anything important, and a lot of people probably found him an irritant. I know that most of my later interaction with Brad wasn't positive. His fansite presentation at E3 2006 left me cold. Jeff Butler had a ton of energy and told us a lot about his vision for the game, but Brad couldn't have looked less interested in being there. On one of my visits to Sigil, Brad was overheard telling someone in a customer/community position not to give an answer to a question, and if someone asked why, just to "tell them I'm eccentric." The best he had to contribute was dismissive. So Mr. Eccentric, how does it feel to have a mud-hole stomped in you by effing Turbine?
In the interest of full disclosure, I should tell you that I'm pissed that I wasted 2 years on developing a community at my site for a game that is nothing more than a steaming pile of shit. I'm pissed that the good people (and good developers) that I care about at Sigil are now in the street, and Brad still has millions and Jeff Butler a job. I'm also pissed that the game was so badly mismanaged and allowed to get to this point. I'm also pissed that the good people at my site have dedicated so much time to help each other only to see this happen.
I truly hope that all my friends at Sigil will land on their feet. I also sincerely hope that no one ever gives Brad another cent to make a game or to start a company and put other's livelihoods at risk. It's evident that Brad lacks the skills, dedication, or maturity to handle that situation.
"Brad McQuaid abandons Sigil"
Brad McQuaid Abandoned Vanguard, Sigil The Grouchy Gamer
In the interest of full disclosure, I should tell you that I'm pissed that I wasted 2 years on developing a community at my site for a game that is nothing more than a steaming pile of shit. I'm pissed that the good people (and good developers) that I care about at Sigil are now in the street, and Brad still has millions and Jeff Butler a job. I'm also pissed that the game was so badly mismanaged and allowed to get to this point. I'm also pissed that the good people at my site have dedicated so much time to help each other only to see this happen.
I truly hope that all my friends at Sigil will land on their feet. I also sincerely hope that no one ever gives Brad another cent to make a game or to start a company and put other's livelihoods at risk. It's evident that Brad lacks the skills, dedication, or maturity to handle that situation.
"Brad McQuaid abandons Sigil"
Brad McQuaid Abandoned Vanguard, Sigil The Grouchy Gamer
I'd love to see Brad put another game out but the way he is chasing money from people right now is wrong.
Flight, Just because they have one city out of many that is similar(I've not played DikuMud so I'm taking your word for it) doesn't mean much. Almost all video games I played have Easter eggs and other features that are "borrowed" from other games so I'm not sure how relevant the Diku stuff even is; if it is at all. Besides we're talking about something that happened in 1996; should Namco Bandai sue every other company that ever made a racing game because they are too similar to pole position? Seriously, EverQuest was the best game I ever played and I really don't give two shits about what legal agreements they had to make to get it published.
I'll make a couple of points then I'm going to leave it. I don't want to get into debates about it.
1. The entire game system of Everquest is a rip off of Sojourn. The classes. The races. The max level. The 'hidden' quest system with no clues. The absolute requirement to be a party to do anything at all and to form 'raids' for major bosses. Harsh XP penalties for death and leaving all your items on your corpse. Individual items by name. Getting second names at level 20. Druids porting groups around. Pretty much everything in the game - I could go on and on listing identical copies of systems and they were radically different, collectively and individually, to anything else around at the time (we're talking early to mid 90s).
/w in Sojourn :
>who sort
Listing of the Mortals!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[50 Ill] Ellese (Drow Elf)
[50 Rog] Immiralee (Drow Elf)
[50 Cle] Rressor (Yuan-Ti)
[50 War] Warraz (Troll) (RP)
[50 Enc] Atesete (Drow Elf)
[47 Dru] Zouve (Half-Elf)
2. Now this is the important point. In itself it isn't damning that Sojourn was copied to make a game as brilliant as EQ1 was for it's time. The thing is pretty much all Brad did was have the idea of moving Sojourn into a 3D environment. It was other people that did the vast majority of the work and have not been adequately recognised for it. Bill Trost above all, Rosie Rappaport, Jay Barbeau, Steve Clover ... the list goes on. Brad took all the credit and did little of the work. Smed enabled it all. He ran it and headed it up and then left them all to it to work their magic. And Brad took all the credit.
Same thing with Sigil/Vanguard.
Brad could produce another game that we all love - I believe that and hope he does. But he needs another Smed above him because what he may have in ideas he lacks in management, team building/leading and common sense.
Dyvim
Bronze Knight of the Realm
- 1,420
- 195
See, the upside of this not successful kickstarter campagin is they didnt raise the money for a new office and still have to develop from Brads basement and thus makes it really hard for him to stay at home and not show up for work for like 5-6 months.
Miele
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 916
- 48
I could be part of that audience, but I wouldn't touch a Brad's game with a 10 ft pole anytime soon. I even gave him the benefit of doubt at the beginning, after 1 week it was pretty clear it was just a money grabbing attempt with absolutely no real effort behind it. At some point it became comical.
Everquest happened, in its bug ridden form, despite him, not because of him. I'll be thankful forever it existed, but looking back, it was a really bad game with a really great community and some assholes to spice it up. It was also D&D in 3D and for me that was way more than enough back then.
If SoE would consider reskinning EQ in HD and reworking a few things here and there to modernize the game, I'd play old EQ immediately, but it won't happen.
On the other hand, Scott Hartsman is in my opinion a talented person, pragmatic, gets shit done and delivers on time. Whether I like what he delivers or not is a different story, but I got quite some enjoyment from his works in the industry: EQ2 Echoes of Faydwer was a blast to play, Kunark not so much. I liked Rift too for a good while.
Brad, sorry man, try to be professional next time you want to put your ass on the line, what you presented was a freaking joke.
Flight, thanks for clarifying. I agree with you that Brad really does need to find a competent CEO to run his company because he have proven time and again that management isn't his specialty. That said I actually enjoyed Vanguard despite the bugs and much rather have the game as it was in March of 2007, bugs and all, over the game that SoE dumbed it down into with all of it's cash shop crap. I haven't given up Pantheon though. I think that they have some great people on their team and if they can get a good CEO and sufficient funding they can deliver a quality game; I just have my doubts that they will get those things.
Serious question here
You state that "That said I actually enjoyed Vanguard despite the bugs and much rather have the game as it was in March of 2007, bugs and all, over the game that SoE dumbed it down into with all of it's cash shop crap"
What makes you think Pantheon is any different especially since you specifically pointed out the "cash shop crap", when Pantheon is already trying to make a cash shop for its game 3 years before it is even released?
You state that "That said I actually enjoyed Vanguard despite the bugs and much rather have the game as it was in March of 2007, bugs and all, over the game that SoE dumbed it down into with all of it's cash shop crap"
What makes you think Pantheon is any different especially since you specifically pointed out the "cash shop crap", when Pantheon is already trying to make a cash shop for its game 3 years before it is even released?
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
- 2,385
- 277
Absolutely - people bring up the 3k backers as a negative, but imo that is a huge number for the crap they showed up with. I'm not in the final backer tally but could've been, plus 3 RL friends that would either back or buy on release day. I'm sure the situation is similar for many.
However, if there's ever a game like this that actually gets made, it wont involve Brad in any position higher then writing content. Most likely it wont involve him at all. Even if people forgave Vanguard (and many didnt) he just showed these weeks that he has not changed, and a theoretical next run at in 5 years after Pantheon forums have shut down would garner even less die hards then Pantheon does.
I'll stick with modern games and Bingo nights while waiting for someone to man up and finance/create Dumaria.
I'm not going to dig up the quote but they clarified that there would be no shop that sales "items of power". I'm sure you're probably referring to the kickstarter add-ons but those were put in place back when they were still trying to be serious about having the kickstarter be successful. The new site doesn't' currently have any add-ons so we'll see what happens. I very much doubt they would ever have a cash shop like Vanguard currently does.
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 3,656
- 1,382
Couple of things here. While I'm willing to agree there is some sort of market for this type of game, I think it's pure guesswork how big that market is. There is no way to know if 50,000 people would subscribe on a consistent basis (to make it profitable), this KS certainly didn't prove that. Many will point to Camelot as there being a market for old school games but I think even that game is targeting a different subsection of gamers. Both the player that loved DAoC and the PvP gamer. The difference here is Pantheon is not trying to appeal to the MMORPG gamer or the PvE gamer. It's trying to appeal to the EQ/VG gamer and it's not even EQ as a whole but from a certain time period (1999 - 2002). I think that really narrows the pool. Now that being said, is it possible there are 50-100k people who would not only play this game, but play it on a consistent basis? Remember that the playerbase by and large is almost conditioned now to play these types of games for a few months tops and then leave. It's not like this game, even though it may have EQ elements, will have the power of an established IP to keep a certain amount of die hards playing. This is the problem a lot of games have ran into (Rift) which then forced them to go F2P.
I think these are all very valid concerns that any investor should have no matter how much they want to believe in Brad. Then you have the ultimate question of do you believe he can deliver this kind of product. Does he have the right people around him to develop and manage all aspects of this? And then ask this, will a substantial amount of people play an MMORPG that they know will be limited (not AAA) for an extended period of time.
I think people might be missing MUDS in the 80s were to college kids what MMOs and Call of Duty are today. There were many and ideas were freely 'borrowed'. Most used AD&D formats a la DIKU
To be completely fair, Sojourn itself is a ripoff of other MUDs and DOORS games and other programs. It's not like it was that original. The fact EQ is graphical is what makes it completely different, and is why EQ sold. If anything, a lot of the DIKU components fucked up the game as much as they helped it. The reason it was popular is the AD&D feel in a 3D world and the vast amounts of former tabletop fantasy players who wanted that type of game, not the DIKU stuff, that has been around a while.
The simple truth is the DIKU guys knew the EQ guys played their game, just like the Blizzard guys played Everquest, and borrowed a lot. It's been going on in games, well, forever. It was a cash grab by them since Verant made a great game based on their time there.
Anyways, why won't all y'all let this thread die? There are two very good MMOs coming out and all anyone wants to do is circle jerk in this thread. I respect the train wreck appeal, but how long can you sit staring at the smoldering ashes of ruin of Brad's Kickstarter and subsequent website debacle?
I still come in here to shake my head not at brads turd he made, but to shake my head at people saying they would still give brad a chance. Basically if what flight is saying is true, and it seems to be backed up, then Brad doesn't even have everquest to point to to get people on his side. When people ignore the VG debacle i just assume they are looking past it to his "glory days" of everquest, now I see that Brad did even less than release a game that had zero designed groundbreaking mechanics. How can people possibly still follow the guy?
Pasteton
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 2,733
- 1,918
Depends what you mean by 'brad mmo.'
I told around 12-13 people about this is, all former eq raiders from vanilla-pop days, all of whom were excited to try vanguard before release.
All of them loved most of the concepts on this ks - it was in a large way exactly the mmo they've been craving.
When they they saw that the name 'brad mcquaid' was attached to the game, all but one of them balked and said 'fuck that shit'. That's over 10 people who specifically did not contribute to the ks BECAUSE it was mcquaid.
I , also, am someone that, if it had been just about anyone except mcquaid, would have supported a ks like this.
So is the market for a brad mmo tapped? If you mean the circle of trust that still has faith in brad producing and executing on a game to completion? Maybe so.
If by 'brad mmo', you mean an old school, hardcore game? Absolutely not even close to tapped.
Mahes
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
- 5,238
- 6,257
You update the graphic engine of Everquest and start with the original world. Then you add in an improved AI script and some limited potential to destroy objects(Walls, ground and so on) with the same first person perspective and surround sound and keep the same rule set of the original Everquest.
You do not have to reinvent the tire, just give it a great set of wheels. I am pretty sure there would be a strong enough market for this kind of game to exist. I know I would have no problem purchasing this game and paying a monthly subscription to it. Especially understanding that fantastic expansions like Kunark and Velious would be coming. I am surprised honestly that Sony did not just go this route, given how long ago Everquest came out. I know Everquest Next is coming but it seems like they are trying to reinvent the wheel with everything they are attempting.
You do not have to reinvent the tire, just give it a great set of wheels. I am pretty sure there would be a strong enough market for this kind of game to exist. I know I would have no problem purchasing this game and paying a monthly subscription to it. Especially understanding that fantastic expansions like Kunark and Velious would be coming. I am surprised honestly that Sony did not just go this route, given how long ago Everquest came out. I know Everquest Next is coming but it seems like they are trying to reinvent the wheel with everything they are attempting.
zzeris
King Turd of Shit Hill
- 20,233
- 85,259
This is exactly my belief as well and Flight exposed why this game will never be what people really want. Because Brad is a hack and expecting greatness from him is truly ludicrous. Might as well call out the ridiculous defense of early VG while I'm at it. VG was a buggy piece of shit that was going down faster than a crack whore with a line sitting in front of her. If SOE hadn't jumped in, VG would never have released. SOE also kept that pile of shit going far longer than Brad or Microsoft would have. SOE came into a really horrible situation and, while not making it better, at least kept the crap afloat for some people to cling to. The only way Brad has ever done a good job? When he had better leadership to lean on and a very close copy of a previous game to make. We have already seen from the KS how his 'original' ideas look.
The market is unknown and will probably stay that way because I don't know anyone willing to make this type of game. As time moves on, I see even less chance for this especially after EQN and the successful KS games are finished.
