Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Phazael · Feb 24, 2014

There is a significant difference between using themes and genre concepts and wholesale copy pasting. As Flight pointed out, a shit load of mechanics and names got directly lifted from Sojourn MUD and a bunch from Toril, too. Hell, verant guys were actively recruiting both staff and customers from within those MUDS. Brad's sole rainman moment was having the balls to go with required 3d graphics cards for the game, which at the time was mind blowing in its risk since 3d cards were just emerging on to the scene. Certainly, the MUD community was big on trading ideas, but it was also not a for profit industry. EQ essentially took a bunch of that community work and turned it into a cash cow, which definitely pissed off a lot of the admins on Sojourn, but as Flight pointed out Sony more or less made that issue go away.

Black Sun Wizard · Feb 24, 2014

This whole project and resultant threads has been more entertaining to follow than anything on the KS. However I'm left with a lingering question still ...

Will Brad ever go back out to community websites (like this or others) in an attempt to muster more interest or is his role as pseudo-community manager done?

Draegan_sl · Feb 24, 2014

Arctic_Slicer_sl said:
Flight, Just because they have one city out of many that is similar(I've not played DikuMud so I'm taking your word for it) doesn't mean much. Almost all video games I played have Easter eggs and other features that are "borrowed" from other games so I'm not sure how relevant the Diku stuff even is; if it is at all. Besides we're talking about something that happened in 1996; should Namco Bandai sue every other company that ever made a racing game because they are too similar to pole position? Seriously, EverQuest was the best game I ever played and I really don't give two shits about what legal agreements they had to make to get it published.

I played SojournMUD and it's derivatives (Duris, Toril, Darkover etc.) and when I went to play EQ is was EXACTLY the same thing except it had graphics. It's a good thing it was copied because it made a new experience. But it was copied 100%, there wasn't even any iteration on gameplay.

iannis · Feb 24, 2014

Yeah, he will. He shouldn't but he will. At this point it's all he can do.

Unless Smed hires him back. Grass textures for eq4.

He's got 3k fanatic devotee's. It seems like the best thing he could do is run an EQEmu and charge $5 per head per month. But I doubt he can even run an Emu.

Vandyn · Feb 24, 2014

Mahes_sl said:
You update the graphic engine of Everquest and start with the original world. Then you add in an improved AI script and some limited potential to destroy objects(Walls, ground and so on) with the same first person perspective and surround sound and keep the same rule set of the original Everquest.

You do not have to reinvent the tire, just give it a great set of wheels. I am pretty sure there would be a strong enough market for this kind of game to exist. I know I would have no problem purchasing this game and paying a monthly subscription to it. Especially understanding that fantastic expansions like Kunark and Velious would be coming. I am surprised honestly that Sony did not just go this route, given how long ago Everquest came out. I know Everquest Next is coming but it seems like they are trying to reinvent the wheel with everything they are attempting.

The problem is everything you describe (especially the limited potential to destroy objects) costs money, probably more than this project could ever hope to achieve. People want their cake and eat it. They want something that closely resembles EQ but they also want it with a decent size budget and AAA production. I think if any miracle that this get's release, expectations should be set far lower.

Draegan_sl · Feb 24, 2014

Mr Creed_sl said:
Absolutely - people bring up the 3k backers as a negative, but imo that is a huge number for the crap they showed up with. I'm not in the final backer tally but could've been, plus 3 RL friends that would either back or buy on release day. I'm sure the situation is similar for many.

However, if there's ever a game like this that actually gets made, it wont involve Brad in any position higher then writing content. Most likely it wont involve him at all. Even if people forgave Vanguard (and many didnt) he just showed these weeks that he has not changed, and a theoretical next run at in 5 years after Pantheon forums have shut down would garner even less die hards then Pantheon does.

I'll stick with modern games and Bingo nights while waiting for someone to man up and finance/create Dumaria.

I think the marketplace is ripe for a challenging persistent online gaming experience. It just needs to be fun. EQ-era mechanics are not fun in today's marketplace. For example, you can take everything that is EQ but tack on TERA's combat and you will probably have a fun game. You can take GW2's world exploration and event system, but tack on EQ's punishments, difficulty and combat pacing and probably have a fun game.

Draegan_sl · Feb 24, 2014

Gecko_sl said:
I think people might be missing MUDS in the 80s were to college kids what MMOs and Call of Duty are today. There were many and ideas were freely 'borrowed'. Most used AD&D formats a la DIKU

To be completely fair, Sojourn itself is a ripoff of other MUDs and DOORS games and other programs. It's not like it was that original. The fact EQ is graphical is what makes it completely different, and is why EQ sold. If anything, a lot of the DIKU components fucked up the game as much as they helped it. The reason it was popular is the AD&D feel in a 3D world and the vast amounts of former tabletop fantasy players who wanted that type of game, not the DIKU stuff, that has been around a while.

The simple truth is the DIKU guys knew the EQ guys played their game, just like the Blizzard guys played Everquest, and borrowed a lot. It's been going on in games, well, forever. It was a cash grab by them since Verant made a great game based on their time there.

Anyways, why won't all y'all let this thread die? There are two very good MMOs coming out and all anyone wants to do is circle jerk in this thread. I respect the train wreck appeal, but how long can you sit staring at the smoldering ashes of ruin of Brad's Kickstarter and subsequent website debacle?

Sojourn took stock CircleMUD code and revamped it. For example, Waterdeep was a re-skinned Midgaard. The Tower of Sorcery north of Waterdeep was another stock zone that was just reskinned.

The real problem people have here is not that EQ took everything from SojournMUD and made it 3D. The problem is that when Brad took everything from SojournMUD he took all the credit for it and allowed people to think it was all his idea which is pretty fucked up and laughable. It would be the same thing as the SojournMUD devs to say they invented their game and please ignore D&D and other Diku muds please.

Gecko_sl · Feb 24, 2014

Draegan_sl said:
I played SojournMUD and it's derivatives (Duris, Toril, Darkover etc.) and when I went to play EQ is was EXACTLY the same thing except it had graphics. It's a good thing it was copied because it made a new experience. But it was copied 100%, there wasn't even any iteration on gameplay.

Except that whole 3D thing. Your car is the exact same thing as walking, except for those wheels things, but other than that it's exactly the same.

This is just a ridiculous statement that you have made over and over missing the base fact that all MUDs are derivative of other things, and EQ was made in the AD&D mold of the game. It's as bad as saying WOW is a copy of Everquest which is far closer to the fact than what you posted above. Yes, Everquest took a lot of the systems. No, it is not a copy of Sojourn and it's not close to the same type of game, any more than sojourn was to the BBS Doors stuff and previous MUDs it stole it's ideas and probably most of its code base from at the time

If they had done more than copy some base ideas they would have been sued and done a lot more than give Sojourn a few bucks.

Carl_sl · Feb 24, 2014

Gecko_sl said:
Except that whole 3D thing. Your car is the exact same thing as walking, except for those wheels things, but other than that it's exactly the same.

This is just a ridiculous statement that you have made over and over missing the base fact that all MUDs are derivative of other things, and EQ was made in the AD&D mold of the game. It's as bad as saying WOW is a copy of Everquest which is far closer to the fact than what you posted above. Yes, Everquest took a lot of the systems. No, it is not a copy of Sojourn and it's not close to the same type of game, any more than sojourn was to the BBS Doors stuff and previous MUDs it stole it's ideas and probably most of its code base from at the time

That seemed like a heated mashing together of words with no good points made.

Draegan_sl · Feb 24, 2014

You failed to see my point. I'll give him all the credit in the world for creating a 3D graphical mud for the first time. However, my issue is that all the gameplay elements he just took and played it off like he came up with all of them. Blizzard never claims it invented WOW in a vacuum and they are very proud of the fact that they took Everquest and polished the shit out of it. They are very proud of their iterative process. Not only that, they improved the genre my adding in a ton of new features, or eliminated other ones that made sense. They put their own spin on things.

Just like MUDs took the table top experience and created a live game based on AD&D formulas, mechanics and themes while also improving the experience of using a computer to replace dicerolls, and create PVE content that can be consumed on demand by a player base that consists of more people than a handful of your local friends. That was iteration.

EQ/Brad's iteration was creating a 3D graphical environment. It was a pretty major and amazing one. My problem is that he like to take credit for inventing the game mechanics, game structure and game themes of Everquest when he did none of that.

Phazael · Feb 24, 2014

The difference is that the Sojourn admins didn't make money off of other people's ideas while claiming they came up with it all and crowing themselves Gamin Design Jesus.

Vandyn · Feb 24, 2014

Draegan_sl said:
You failed to see my point. I'll give him all the credit in the world for creating a 3D graphical mud for the first time. However, my issue is that all the gameplay elements he just took and played it off like he came up with all of them. Blizzard never claims it invented WOW in a vacuum and they are very proud of the fact that they took Everquest and polished the shit out of it. They are very proud of their iterative process. Not only that, they improved the genre my adding in a ton of new features, or eliminated other ones that made sense. They put their own spin on things.

Just like MUDs took the table top experience and created a live game based on AD&D formulas, mechanics and themes while also improving the experience of using a computer to replace dicerolls, and create PVE content that can be consumed on demand by a player base that consists of more people than a handful of your local friends. That was iteration.

EQ/Brad's iteration was creating a 3D graphical environment. It was a pretty major and amazing one. My problem is that he like to take credit for inventing the game mechanics, game structure and game themes of Everquest when he did none of that.

Yea I agree, if you listen to the fanatics they believe that everything that Brad touches is gold, that he created EQ from scratch, etc etc and from what's posted so far that couldn't be any further from the truth. All it does is prove the fallacy that some of these crazy people are clinging to. That basically since Brad created EQ that Pantheon must be the second coming because of Brad. Which in turn also proves that if Brad was not part of this project it probably wouldn't even have 3000 backers.

Gecko_sl · Feb 24, 2014

Somewhat semantics, but my point is an iteration is not copying. EQ is not a copy of Sojourn. This is the part that is just silly:

when I went to play EQ is was EXACTLY the same thing except it had graphics.

As someone who played a ton of MUDS, EQ was very different from any MUD experience due to the graphics, but also due to some other things. What you might say is EQ borrowed some MUD design ideas and AD&D classes, which would be accurate. The game itself was as different an experience as MUDs were to tabletop games.

I can't remember where, but I do remember Brad gave credit for a lot of EQ based on his MUD days. I just think taking death penalties, forced grouping, and many of the other things that were in Sojourn were actually a good chunk of the problems Everquest had early on and not responsible for it's success which was based on the actual gameplay and graphics which were ahead of it's time.

tldr: you are way oversimplifying things when talking about MUD --> EQ. It was revolutionary to some degree, and far better than what we had seen from The Imagination Network, GEnie, or from MUDs.

BubbySoup · Feb 24, 2014

Epic stylised shot of the Karanas & HH. I remember seeing that wooden bridge loom out of the fog (it wasn't foggy, we just had shitty GPU's back then) and my excitement as I crossed it wondering what new places I was going to get killed in lol.

Fuck these rose tinted glasses, they always make EQ seem better than it actually was...

Kirun · Feb 24, 2014

Arctic_Slicer_sl said:
Since they are planning to charge a subscription they really don't need a huge number of players for the game to be profitable. If they can get 50,000 people to subscribe at $15/month they would have make $9 million in the first year. 50,000 subscribers doesn't sound that farfetched if they can deliver a quality product.

Here's the issue with that - does a market 50,000 large evenexistfor this sort of game? 3,000 fanatics, 20%+ of which donated 100+ dollars, 10+% who donated 250+, doesn't exactly speak to the validity of that. Now, maybe I'm completely wrong, but that statistic seems insane to me(another one of the outliers with this). I think it speaks volumes as to just how "cult-like" this fan base is.

Sure, a market exists. A "market" also exists for a Strawberry Shortcake MMO. It doesn't change the fact that you're attempting to reach such a small subset of people, that it'd be nearly impossible to make it profitable enough to be worth the effort.

Arctic_Slicer_sl said:
Seriously, EverQuest was the best game I ever played andI really don't give two shits about what legal agreements they had to make to get it published.

See what I mean? This statement says it all.

Mr Creed_sl said:
However, if there's ever a game like this that actually gets made, it wont involve Brad in any position higher then writing content.

Man, if there is one thing Brad did well, it's definitely in taking all the credit and selling you people on thinking that he's some sort of "visionary". Flight laid out everything you need to know about Brad McQuaid. He had an "idea" to port a MUD to a 3D environment, yet people continuously cling to the notion that he has some sort of awe-inspiring design talent/ideas. Seriously?

Draegan_sl · Feb 24, 2014

Gecko_sl said:
Somewhat semantics, but my point is an iteration is not copying. EQ is not a copy of Sojourn. This is the part that is just silly:

when I went to play EQ is was EXACTLY the same thing except it had graphics.

As someone who played a ton of MUDS, EQ was very different from any MUD experience due to the graphics, but also due to some other things. What you might say is EQ borrowed some MUD design ideas and AD&D classes, which would be accurate. The game itself was as different an experience as MUDs were to tabletop games.

I can't remember where, but I do remember Brad gave credit for a lot of EQ based on his MUD days. I just think taking death penalties, forced grouping, and many of the other things that were in Sojourn were actually a good chunk of the problems Everquest had early on and not responsible for it's success which was based on the actual gameplay and graphics which were ahead of it's time.

tldr: you are way oversimplifying things when talking about MUD --> EQ. It was revolutionary to some degree, and far better than what we had seen from The Imagination Network, GEnie, or from MUDs.

Shadows of Yserbius was my first online RPG.

Convo · Feb 24, 2014

Phazael_sl said:
The difference is that the Sojourn admins didn't make money off of other people's ideas while claiming they came up with it all and crowing themselves Gamin Design Jesus.

Didn't Brad actually say he used Sojourn as his inspiration for EQ? I know I read that recently.

Gecko_sl · Feb 24, 2014

Draegan_sl said:
Shadows of Yserbius was my first online RPG.

I still cringe remembering how much I wasted on Yserbius/TSN/INN, Compuserve, and GEnie that one had to pay by the hour. Anyways, off my crappy nitpicking tangent. My first online RPG was a Phaze Door BBS in the early 80s.

Gaige · Feb 24, 2014

Convo_sl said:
Didn't Brad actually say he used Sojourn as his inspiration for EQ? I know I read that recently.

Which of course he was allowed to say after they paid the Sojourn team off lol.

Kirun · Feb 24, 2014

Convo_sl said:
Didn't Brad actually say he used Sojourn as his inspiration for EQ? I know I read that recently.

And even that statement is rife with him attempting to make it seem as though Sojourn was only an "inspiration" for his divine talents. The guy had an idea to port MUDs to 3D. With what we know now, he didn't even really do the "work" portion to bring that idea to fruition. It sounds like he was never anything more than an idea man and not even the ideas were his own.

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