Science!! Fucking magnets, how do they work?

Palum

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While that tech is amazing for the disabled, it is nothing at all what Musk's Neuralink is trying to do. Stuff like that is using tiny muscle movements as inputs to control the bionics. Often times, you are using muscles normally attributed to doing something else to control a dissimilar movement. (ie: forearm flex to close a hand, etc) Hawking does the same using a sensor on his cheek muscle to type on his voice machine.

In an ideal situation, Neruralink would use the brain's motor cortex to control the bionics. Just like you have to "tell yourself" (voluntary movement) to open your hand or make a fist, Nerualink would use that brain activity to control the bionics.

Shit has a long way to go, but it is fascinating.

I feel that a lot of technology like that is behind simply because of battery technology. Once the problem of energy storage density gets solved (within our current technological and computational scope) I think a lot more effort will be placed on things like prosthetics.
 

Lithose

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I only skimmed it, but it looks like he's talking about transhumanism. Well, the very first practical steps of it.

That shit gets both really wonderful and really creepy really really fast.

"medical miracles" is not an understatement.

I'm not even against it. Not at all, I'm for it. The individual applications -- miraculous. The social implications? Fucking terrifying, for real.

But you know, being scared isn't in itself the best reason to not do something.

I love the theory that this is the great barrier--this is why we've never seen aliens, or other sentient beings. At some point every civilizations learns how to interface digitally with their brains directly, eventually leading to the ability to transfer consciousness to machine bodies, or within a digital simulation (The Matrix). Once you achieve that, the point of space exploration is nill. Society will set up a variable dyson swarm that can grow with their star's expansion and collapse so they have billions of years of energy. They spend the time exploring digital worlds that are created by hive consciousnesses that allow them to produce the complexity of our own universe with ease, in billions and billions of iterations to the point that exploring the digital worlds--which can be far more interesting--becomes the obsession.

Kind of like, imagine if Hollywood movies were real worlds, of much finer detail that functioned like the Matrix, and because the computational power of the swarm is so great they could be populated with their own sentience and even digital life forms. So as a human you could hop into actual star wars, maybe even a version where you don't retain your memories so you life an entire life there and when you die, you return to your base consciousness (Or simply exchange memories with your base consciousness as you've become a new consciousness). Humanity eventually begins a cycle of living entire life times experiencing millions of different lives, from fantastic to mundane, without ever leaving our star--just as countless other races have done. (And as said above, because you could create mirrors of your consciousness, and exchange memories, you could experience countless lives all at once--just different aspects of the same god entity enjoying his imagination.)

Of course, that would also mean we could be aspects of another species civilization, or even a created by humans to explore this time period. We could be "real humans" or "simulations"--but it wouldn't matter, because simulations would be every bit as conscious and alive as real humans, since real humans don't have physical bodies anymore. Eventually the simulations would create their own simulations, and the number of universes would grow exponentially to explore--with no one really knowing what 'real' was anymore. (As said, we could be deep within another universes simulation, a game about what earth was like at the dawn of the digital age.)

Anyway--why explore the universe when you can create billions of your own? Why fuck around in Gods playground when you can be God and make your own?
 
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Mahes

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Who is to say we are not already living that existence? Maybe this is the calm story. Maybe we are all one collective thought separated by a programmed barrier.

To aspire to create a world we want to live in only to then live in that world attempting to create a world we want to live in.

Curiosity is the one drive that has a chance to override imagination. Despite the seemingly boring universe when compared to what our imaginations can create, we still possess that drive to want to know what our universe is. Why do we exist? I agree that most people would choose the Matrix system, only because they consider their lives mundane or even tortuous. It is why many people play video games. Maybe that is why we will need robots.Something will need to care for the few humans that choose to remain conscious and those that do not.
 
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Lithose

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Very cool. Wouldn't mind a much briefer description, especially for people who already know almost everything on that page.

Well, in terms of the human colossus, he's talking about a specific theory, I forget the name of it though . =-/ Essentially the theory is that the complexity of evolution is based on communication. You can look at any organism with a brain and nervous system the same way as we look (In a very broad view) as Eukaryotic cells. And those organisms will follow the same kind of path the single celled organisms did on a macro scale. (Note: I'm not a biologist, and going off memory, so may get a lot of biological shit wrong :p. Long, but I love the theory, so going to write it out.)

But TLDR. Human society is analogous to cellular evolution. Early humans, like colonies of single cells. Romans society is complex multi-cell systems like plants or sponges. Early industrial revolution society is like invertebrates with just a nervous system, no ganglia or brains (Starfish). WW1ish society are like lobsters, and snails. 50's humans with TV and Radio and phones are like early vertebrates, small brains, simple. Modern society is becoming the equivalent of advanced vertebrates, and future man will be to us, what we are to other social mammals right now. Future humans will look at our language and idea sharing like it was so simplistic that it would be difficult for them to comprehend how we got shit done, like we try to figure out how Orcas and Chimps are able to work together in complex ways. Because they interface at levels where full ideas, and memories and intentions can simply move from consciousness to consciousness and emotions can be shared perfectly rather than the visual and verbal middle man, our clumsy communication, even if we consider it advanced (Like me typing through a global network of communication, right now.), will look too obtuse and simple to do anything those future humans consider complex--the fact that we could build even 'simple' tools (By their standard), like satellites and advanced computers, will be amazing.

So, you start with the single Eukaryotic cell, just your average flaggets running around eating and reproducing. Just like the first animals, they were individuals doing their own thing, coming together to exchange information sometimes for sexual reproduction but mostly on their own. Some of these cells, through evolution, found it beneficial to move together when certain chemicals were released by other cells of the same type. Amoeba's do this when stressed (They form slugs kind of) and choanoflagellate, probably animals common ancestor, do this as well. It's a really simple form of communication, chemical goes out, others come, their nucleas contained information which attracted them to the simple messages. You can compare this to the start of human complex communication (Really, a bunch of animals can do this, but its just a rough analogy--essentially though, humanity before language but still able to work and communicate in a group).

Somewhere along the line, those colonies of cells learned how to detect chemicals (Communication) from other types of colonies, who were beneficial to be around (One possible explanation for multi-cellular life, plants, animals ect). Over time the information exchanges became more sophisticated, to the point where what could be communicated was specialized and and far more specific (IE a chemical released which only stimulates one type of cell in the large system), which lead to specialized tissues and organs made up of specific cells being selected for, including rudimentary specialized cells for conveyance of the genetic structure of all the different specialized cells in the organism (Specialized sexual cells--which means each generation could continue to use natural selection to specialize individual cell types further thanks to that communication system selecting for them). The analogy in humans is fully developed language. It allowed us to convey far more sophisticated and specialized information, passing on techniques, and knowledge, which allowed us to begin working with and changing other species, just as the multicelluars slowly specialized their various tissues with better communication, we continually specialized our tools, our dominance of plants (Farming) and other animals (Livestock, dogs ect). (Technically you could make the case symbiotic organisms already existed which specialized to animals, like gut bacteria, but again, rough analogy).

Eventually advanced animals and plants had sophisticated chemical communication systems internally, with specialized chemicals, and cells, and pathways, for fairly complex communication to more and more specialized subdivisions (Just continued specialization and advancement, but of the same basic system, transferring chemicals). This would be analogous to human writing. The ability to carry the verbal language in unique ways, long distances (And store it more accurately). Things like roads, and our domination of other animals, and plants, all help with this. The next big segregating factor for multi-cellular was was the nervous system, allowing much faster, much more accurate information transfer between cell groups (Organs, tissues). Simple invertebrate don't have brains (Jellyfish, Starfish, Hydras ect), but do have these, letting stimulation instantly cause a specific reaction elsewhere (but heavily restricted to simple messages). The human analogy would be the telegraph. Far more information, far more accurately, and specifically, far faster than writing could convey (But heavily restricted to narrower message types). Then certain animals developed ganglia, processing structures which allowed hubs to distribute and receive information, which allowed far more complex and nuanced information (Allowing more sensory information and better distribution to more cell subdivisions). The human analogy would be the telephone and the television/radio, with a far higher volume of information transferred, and far more distribution throughout to individual humans, and more importantly, a much higher complexity of information. So more people could receive and send information.

Eventually animals grew more and more complex nervous systems and brains (I'm not saying it was a single path, but some were selected that way). The brain allows for extremely efficient processing of both information received, and distributed, with many ganglia throughout the organism--allowing enormous complexity in ideas, and far more multilateral movement of information. The human analogy would be computers and the internet, multilateral information with powerful processing nodes, like ganglia, everywhere and growing centralized information transfers (Servers). Eventually, humans, like the cells which became specialized around the nervous system, integrate and specialize far more until the organism works together at a level that's the functional difference between a starfish (Humans circa 1800's), and a lobster (Humans circa 1950's), and a large complex animal like an eagle or rodent (Humans circa today). Eventually as we integrate more fully with our nervous system, and our communication becomes more fluid thanks to direct interfaces which will allow enormous, seamless information transfers, humans on the whole will be like a cell is within our bodies, alone its just a cell, but in terms of the species together we'll be a single organism nearly of capability to shape our world at levels we can't now imagine because our information transfer is too clumsy, and slow. Just like early farmers couldn't forseehow a society like Rome could function, because they didn't have codified written language, and just like how a Roman couldn't foresee us with our instant transfers--we will probably be shocked at what a world looks like that allows us to share our thoughts directly, no misunderstandings or imperfections in communication because your meaning is absolutely clear, and you can work with others in the seamless way you move your own hand.
 
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iannis

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Because it's the easiest answer, emotionally satisfying, but not the simplest answer.

There is great reason to suspect that notion. Every generation goes through that idea. For the primitive, reality is the weather and the gods are above the clouds. For the romantics, reality is a steam engine and the gods are inside it. For the contemporary, reality is a computer simulation and the gods are a snippet of code. Every generation behaves this way and they each have had very good reason to suspect that they were right. And in a way they are. That is in fact an observation of reality. But it is internal, not external.

If you read the Bhagavad Gita you will see a very similar idea expressed about the nature of reality. They didn't have computers, and they used different seasonal terms, but that's just cosmetics. The idea itself is as old as man.

The Greeks even named it. Solopism.

You can't disprove it. You can NEVER disprove it. That should make a scientific mind take pause. There is one point and one point only where such an assumption should be given serious credibility -- the point at which all other assumptions have been proven false.
 

Ukerric

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Kind of like, imagine if Hollywood movies were real worlds, of much finer detail that functioned like the Matrix, and because the computational power of the swarm is so great they could be populated with their own sentience and even digital life forms. So as a human you could hop into actual star wars, maybe even a version where you don't retain your memories so you life an entire life there and when you die, you return to your base consciousness (Or simply exchange memories with your base consciousness as you've become a new consciousness).
That's the point though.

"So, as a human..."

The endpoint of a potential Neuralink technology is NOT human. No more than humans are great apes. The brain (and mind) are extremely plastic, so you're going to integrate into your own consciousness a number of expanded capacities and social systems that can't be imagined right now, no more than a bonobo can understand what Facebook is like.

At that point, trying to live in a simulation as a human in Star Wars XXIX The Fallen Jedi is basically the equivalent of bingeing yourself full of alcohol and snorting 6 lines of coke to blow your mind, except less rewarding.
 

Sentagur

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That's the point though.

"So, as a human..."

The endpoint of a potential Neuralink technology is NOT human. No more than humans are great apes. The brain (and mind) are extremely plastic, so you're going to integrate into your own consciousness a number of expanded capacities and social systems that can't be imagined right now, no more than a bonobo can understand what Facebook is like.

At that point, trying to live in a simulation as a human in Star Wars XXIX The Fallen Jedi is basically the equivalent of bingeing yourself full of alcohol and snorting 6 lines of coke to blow your mind, except less rewarding.

Well if wasting time is no longer a concern and neither are physical side effects then what would be so bad about binge drinking or in this case slaying jedi/sith until you get bored in a couple of hundred years.
This would most likely be post scarcity society so it wouldn't matter at all.

And if we are talking about mental side effects of spending a lifetime in the equivalent of a holodeck in our mind, who is to say we will not have backup/restore capabilities for our consciousness before anyone risks it.
Also cloning of consciousness could be an option, instance.1 works while instance.2 goes hang gliding and at the end of the week the data is merged like Total Recall or in that new Dark Matter TV show.
Possibilities are endless at that point.
 

Lithose

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That's the point though.

"So, as a human..."

The endpoint of a potential Neuralink technology is NOT human. No more than humans are great apes. The brain (and mind) are extremely plastic, so you're going to integrate into your own consciousness a number of expanded capacities and social systems that can't be imagined right now, no more than a bonobo can understand what Facebook is like.

At that point, trying to live in a simulation as a human in Star Wars XXIX The Fallen Jedi is basically the equivalent of bingeing yourself full of alcohol and snorting 6 lines of coke to blow your mind, except less rewarding.

You never wondered what it was like to be a bird or some other animal? As sent says, the limitations on what we feel are constrictions are also gone. If you could divide your consciousness up and absorb the memories, hell, there is no limit to what you'd want to experience (It becomes kind of mind bending though--some scary shit when you think about it. If you could experience countless things at once, and had billions of years, I mean--there has to be a limit, right? I know the limit is heat death of the universe, and there are actual data limits within this universe, so I guess there are limits, it's just staggering)

Yes, though, it wouldn't be human anymore. Hell, as you said, depending on how plastic human consciousness--the ability to even 'be yourself' might not exist how we understand it. With the capability to become more intimate instantly than anyone could possibly achieve today, the idea of being an individual organism, or consciousness might not be a reality. Crazy to think about.
 

iannis

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At that point the concept of self becomes something that we don't understand.

Quite possibly anacronistic.

Buddah warned us about this.
 

Ukerric

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Well if wasting time is no longer a concern and neither are physical side effects then what would be so bad about binge drinking or in this case slaying jedi/sith until you get bored in a couple of hundred years.
It's not a matter of "can it be done", it's more of a matter of "why would you even want that?" (on a regular basis, that is).

Even without transhumanist stuff, consider how someone from 1917 would consider people on facebook. Heck, I have a hard time understanding how a teen today can spend so much time engrossed in facebook, and I saw it coming into being.
 

iannis

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But it does not fundamentally change the concept of self. The dude from 1917 has an analogue through which he can understand and relate to it. Even a primitive can grasp it. They may be overawed by it's power, but they can understand "this is a complex tool".

What you're talking about is decoupling conciousness from sense perception. That's something that we really can't understand. Sensory deprivation tanks are not truly sensory deprivation. Humans have internal senses which most of them don't realize they have, and sensory deprivation plays on that. You literally could not function as a cohesive organism if that were not true. The only analogue we have to it is cripples and retards. In this case, we're the cripples and retards.

It is an evolutionarily significant event. Really, it is. The ability to create and control fire type shit.

Hell, we don't even know if you CAN decouple conciousness from sense perception. We can envision that... maybe. But it might turn out that it's just a really fancy way to kill people.
 
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Tuco

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This is the science thread, not the "science fiction" or "science enthusiasts who use philosophy and sociology to ponder scientific issues thread".
 
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Palum

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That means no hyperloop in this thread until you can provide a scientific consensus that materials science has fixed the thermal expansion problem.
 
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Furry

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So does that mean unproven theories such as Quantum entanglement are banned?

I mean its being researched!!! but there's also people researching the crap they're talking about. Please define your vague criteria better.
 
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ZyyzYzzy

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So does that mean unproven theories such as Quantum entanglement are banned?

I mean its being researched!!! but there's also people researching the crap they're talking about. Please define your vague criteria better.
Using your understanding of things numbers must also be banned here

Who's the first witch we burn at the stake?
 
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