Sports writer kills himself, leaves behind website describing how and why

Famm

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I know when David Carridine was found dead of auto erotic asphyxiation while wearing women's clothing in a closet in Bangkok I had to struggle really hard not to try and emulate that death.

Its just...if Bill can go out in such a badass way, why can't we all?
That was an accident, not suicide.
 

hodj

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Nah, his wife warned him he played it too close to the edge on that shit. He knew what he was doing and that's what turned him on about it. Dude totally wanted it.
 

TrollfaceDeux

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Is dumar okay with suicide booth?

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Dumar_sl

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Might have. Last thing he said was he was going to come back later with The One Post To Rule Them All.

Then it never materializes and he disappears for a day.
I'm excited you're finally back on topic. Post will come, will be long so be prepared to read. Might be today or tomorrow.
 

hodj

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I'm excited you're finally back on topic. Post will come, will be long so be prepared to read. Might be today or tomorrow.
He's handwriting the post before he delivers it to us. It must be edited by at least 3 Frankfurt school graduates before it is allowed to be posted.

Anyway, who wants to take bets that it'll be 8000 words and will lack the one thing he needs to provide to end this argument in his favor: Citation of peer reviewed research showing a direct correlation between the ownership of commodities and the loss of capacity for emotion and interconnectedness with other people.

Who does this guy think he is?
Someone who thinks he holds a graduate degree from Columbia University in the field of sociology.

Really.

Last Columbia grad I talked to said I was racist for using the term crackhead because it implies black people.

I told him every crack head I've ever known was white. That's a true story too. Never met a single black crackhead, known about 10 white crackheads.

In fact I'd say virtually every addict I've ever known was white.

Known a few black alcholics, that's about it.
 

Famm

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http://www.icesi.edu.co/revistas/ind.../view/367/html

A particular example of exacerbated entropic consumption took place in the aftermath of 9/11. After the terrorist attacks, consumers bought goods in record quantities, complying with President Bush?s encouragement to "go out shopping" (Arndt, Solomon, Kasser and Sheldon, 2004), aptly reflecting a phenomenon common to many countries where consuming is deemed as a patriotic act (Csikszentmihalyi, 2000). When US citizens go out shopping, they satisfy a short-term goal of getting pleasure from buying things, substituting for more meaningful experiences. When purchasing is directed towards social or experiential consumption, however, the longer-term objective of enjoying through experience enhances happiness (Csikszentmihalyi, 1990; Russell, 1930; Van Boven, 2005). Take Colombia, for instance, a country that has also had to deal with ongoing terrorist threats. Rather than buying things, Colombians opt for social or family-binding experiences. Considering that Colombia scores are consistently higher than the US in happiness ratings (Diener et al., 1995; Inglehart, 2007; NEF, 2007; Veenhoven and Kalmijn, 2005), experientialist consumption does seem more efficient than shopping in making people happy.

Such contrasting consumption patterns between unhappy-wealthy and happy-poor countries can also be evaluated within an individualist/ collectivist framework. Previous research has reported that collectivism is a survival mechanism in poor countries (Ahuvia, 2002). In wealthier countries, however, collectivism is inconsistent with the prevailing cultural pressures to achieve personal and economic success on an individual basis. That is, whereas collectivism might contribute to happiness in a poor country, it is individualism could actually reduce life satisfaction in a wealthy western-world one. Interestingly, a collectivist orientation might in fact result in lower levels of happiness as wealth?and hence consumption entropy cost?increases.
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hodj

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Citation of peer reviewed research showinga direct correlation between the ownership of commodities and the loss of capacity for emotion and interconnectedness with other people.
The argument has never been whether material things buy you long or short term happiness, which is what this paper is about (by the way its a good citation, but still doesn't support what Dumar is asserting) but rather if material things, as a fact of their existence, strip away capacity for emotional connection between people.
 

Famm

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I'm not sure he was ever asserting that material things do anything by the simple fact of their existence. I took it as the focus on obtaining material things becomes a replacement for pursuit of relational and experiential fulfillment.

Maybe he will address this in his upcoming treatise.
 

hodj

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I'm not sure he was ever asserting that material things do anything by the simple fact of their existence. I took it as the focus on obtaining material things becomes a replacement for pursuit of relational and experiential fulfillment.

Maybe he will address this in his upcoming treatise.
I've only quoted him saying it multiple times in the thread.

He's also on the record saying most of the data used to define that paper you cited doesn't count, like rates of consumption versus happiness indexes and the like. Here's the post

Rates of population growth, of consumption, are not evidence of anything. Your previous 'evidence' of people being 'happy' with a certain amount of wealth is useless.

Go back and ask a member of the Nazi party how happy they were in their society. I'm sure they'd love to tell you that genocide made them very happy too. Ask whatever rich elite Taiwanese guy who owns a stake in Foxconn how happy he is with his wealth, ignoring the masses of manipulated and dispossessed workers in his employ.

Your evidence is evidence of nothing. It's random figures put on a screen. Why don't you look at mental illness as a product of social dysfunction over time if you want to be productive and find some 'hard evidence'.
He's pretty well on the record saying you can't quantify these measurements, that its entirely qualitative, etc.

And of course, recall that all of this is his evidence for why suicide is justifiable in our society. Here was his original post that started this debate, where he tried to tell someone clearly demonstrating a call for help about his depression that he wasn't depressed and that suicide in our society is justifiable because commodity culture makes people robots.

You're not mentally sick whatsoever. Do not let society or anyone here tell you you're mentally ill for not wanting to the live the life you're living.A mentally healthy person in a very mentally sick society will often feel alone, estranged, and alienated, which could lead to suicide. But that suicide is in, fact, a healthy choice. Brief introduction that touches the subject:

Psychology Today - Depressive Realism



And of course, no topic on mental illness in society would be complete without Fromm:
And the post he was replying to, for context

I don't really think it's fair to call him an asshole for what he did. He can't exactly gift his life to someone else, but someone's life may have been improved or even saved by the organs that could be used from him which may not have been the case down the road as he got older.

My life isn't all that important to me. I've wanted to end it since I was 10 years old, but I stopped myself because I love my parents and I didn't want to hurt them. Some years from now when they're gone, I don't really see a reason for me to stick around so I'll probably be calling it a day after that. That could change of course, but for right now that's my plan. Others might want to keep living as long as they can to see all the possibilities that are ahead, but it really just doesn't interest me. I should be able to have that view and make that choice for myself without feeling bad or guilty about it.

Everyone's views on this topic are going to be different and I don't think that anything anyone says is really going to convince anyone to change their mind on it. If anything, this guy did succeed in getting people to talk about a difficult subject, which is good. We aren't given a choice as to whether or not we want to be born and I don't feel that anyone should feel forced to keep on living if they don't want to. Choosing death also shouldn't immediately label you as being sick or unfit to make rational decisions. Of course, if someone feels it's their only option that's something else entirely.

There's no set of conditions to be met or a line to be crossed before this kind of suicide acceptable or unacceptable. It's just another choice with its own set of consequences that's going to affect everyone differently. Not sure what point if any I was trying to make with all that but meh.
You must be careful not to let his rambling and occassional possibly decent point in the context of another discussion distract you from his original thesis, a justification for telling a person who is depressed that they shouldn't seek therapy, they are perfectly sane, that suicide can be a healthy choice because we live in a society that's fucked up.

That's some goddamn irresponsible levels of violating the do no harm principle on their face.

Basically, the tl:dr of this thread is Dumar got called out for asserting to a depressed person that suicide could be a healthy option for him, because our society is consumerist and therefore produces evil robot people incapable of emotional connection with one another, and he decided to turn it into a massive ad naseum fallacy to defend his terrible position.
 

Famm

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You must be careful not to let his rambling and occassional possibly decent point in the context of another discussion distract you from his original thesis, all of this gobbly Faulty Armor he's typed of being, in the end, a justification for (or distraction from, in another view) his original statement that a person who is depressed shouldn't seek therapy, they are perfectly sane, its society that's fucked up.
I don't know if he ever said specifically that depressed people should NOT ever seek treatment. (I'm sure you're going to tell me.
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But I know what he's referring to there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism

Depressive realism is the proposition that people with depression actually have a more accurate perception of reality, specifically that they are less affected by positive illusions of illusory superiority, the locus of control, and optimism bias.

Studies by psychologists Alloy and Abramson[1] and Dobson and Franche[2] suggested that depressed people appear to have a more realistic perception of their importance, reputation, locus of control, and abilities than those who are not depressed.

People with depression may be less likely to have inflated self-images and look at the world through "rose-colored glasses", thanks to cognitive dissonance elimination and a variety of other defense mechanisms that allow them to ignore or otherwise look beyond the harsh realities of life.

This does not necessarily imply that a specific happy person is delusional nor deny that some depressed individuals may be unrealistically negative.[3]

Some recent studies argue contrary to the hypothesis, suggesting that mentally healthy people actually have fewer positive illusions and illusions in general than depressed ones. For example, studies by Msetfi et al.[4][5] found that when replicating Alloy and Abramsons findings the overestimation of control in nondepressed people only showed up when the interval was long enough, implying that this is because they take more aspects of a situation into account than their depressed counterparts, and other studies such as Joiner et al.[6] or Moore et al.[7] found that all forms of illusion, positive or not, were associated with higher depressive symptoms. It might also be that the pessimistic bias of depressives results in "depressive realism" when, for example, measuring estimation of control when there is none, as proposed by Allan et al.[8] Various other recent studies[9] such as Fu et al.,[10] Carsona et al.[11] and Boyd-Wilson et al.[12] reject the idea of depressive realism by showing no link between positive illusions and mental health, well-being or life satisfaction maintaining that accurate perception of reality is compatible with happiness.

A longitudinal study found that self-enhancement biases were associated with poor social skills and psychological maladjustment.[13] In a separate experiment where videotaped conversations between men and women were rated by independent observers, self-enhancing individuals were more likely to show socially problematic behaviors such as hostility or irritability. A 2007 study found that self-enhancement biases were associated with psychological benefits (such as subjective well-being) but also inter- and inter-personal costs (such as anti-social behavior).[14]

When studying the link between self-esteem and positive illusions, Compton identified a group of successful persons which possessed high self-esteem without positive illusions, and that these individuals weren't depressed, neurotic, psychotic, maladjusted nor personality disordered, thus concluding that positive illusions aren't necessary for high self-esteem.[15] Compared to the group not so successful with positive illusions and high self-esteem, the disillusional group with high self-esteem was higher on self-criticism and personality integration and lower on psychoticism.

A meta-analysis of 78 studies including 7305 subjects by Moore and Fresco found that slightly more studies supported the depressive realism hypothesis (Cohen's d = -.07, SD = .46).[16] Both depressed and nondepressed participants were found to be strongly positively biased, which does not go in line with the hypothesis. Studies lacking an objective standard of reality and that utilize self-report measures to assess depression were more likely to find depressive realism effects. There also was a significant moderation to the effect by the method which was used to measure depressive realism (however, it should be noted that this was an exploratory analysis). Judgment of contingency and recall of feedback studies produced very small depressive realism effects owing to biases in opposing directions in both depressed and nondepressed groups (a negative bias in the former and positive bias in the later). Evaluation of performance studies, however, demonstrated small anti-depressive realism effects.
 

hodj

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I don't know if he ever said specifically that depressed people should NOT ever seek treatment. (I'm sure you're going to tell me.
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You're not mentally sick whatsoever. Do not let society or anyone here tell you you're mentally ill for not wanting to the live the life you're living. A mentally healthy person in a very mentally sick society will often feel alone, estranged, and alienated, which could lead to suicide. But that suicide is in, fact, a healthy choice. Brief introduction that touches the subject:
Sure sounds like he's telling the guy that there's nothing wrong with him, that our society is making him depressed and that suicide can be a healthy choice in that situation.

I mean I guess you could interpret that he was talking abstractly but he directly quoted the guy and responded directly to him, and framed his entire choice of words in direction to the guy telling him not to let ANYONE in this society or HERE tell them that they're mentally ill.

I gotta go to class until around 5 pm so probably won't be able to reply for awhile, but let me just say that that article actually undermines Dumar's position if you go back and read what he said earlier about not having positive illusions meant you see the world for what it is, which is primarily negative, and thus if you're depressed by that, that's because you "see the world the way it truly is". He essentially said its impossible to find joy in modern society because of our consumerist culture. That's when I asked him "What about cutting the cord on my kids, being married, I feel happy and don't feel like I lie to myself about my existence" and he basically wrote that off as "If you're happy in this society for any reason, you're believing an illusion."

Which is contradicted in your citation above, where it shows that

When studying the link between self-esteem and positive illusions, Compton identified a group of successful persons which possessed high self-esteem without positive illusions, and that these individuals weren't depressed, neurotic, psychotic, maladjusted nor personality disordered, thus concluding that positive illusions aren't necessary for high self-esteem.
Normal, healthy, well adjusted people who "truly see the world for the way it is" can still be happy and have a high self esteem without lying to themselves, or deciding the entire universe is a cold dark place full of people out to get you. Which is the opposite of Dumar's earlier assertions way back at the start of this debate.
 

Famm

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To be fair, gamers tell each other to kill themselves all the time. Its cultural!
 

Dumar_sl

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The argument has never been whether material things buy you long or short term happiness, which is what this paper is about (by the way its a good citation, but still doesn't support what Dumar is asserting) but rather if material things, as a fact of their existence, strip away capacity for emotional connection between people.
Before I even begin to write my wordgasm, let me beexplicitlyclear yet again so that you understand what I'm saying and we can move forward. I never saidstrip away capacity for emotional connection between people. My words below:

Dumar_sl said:
I don't know what you're talking about with magic. They respond emotionally to the commodity.

It strips them because they're no longer human: their life, the sum of their emotional, psychological responses - in short, their feelings and sensuous experience - is more and more experienced by a sum of commodity generations, not through their direct activity as a human being related to the world and other human beings.
This does not mean stripping away of emotion: it stripsthem(them meaning they above, human beings) of their capacity to experience being an actual human being. Well Dumar, what does that mean?

Do you recall my sidewalk? A human being defines his or her life by experiences, experiences with loved ones, other people, life events, and most importantly of all,their activity. You can define the experience of being a human being byhuman activity. What they do everyday. And by extension, how that doingmakes them feeleveryday.

If we further keep turning all activity, all experience into a commodity, itreplaces human activity: less and less are you excited or joyous by somethingyou yourselfhave done, but rather, an object, a product, a commodity, has now created that feeling for you, rather than you as yourselfdoing somethingthat beget those feelings of excitement or joy.

It replaces your spontaneous feelings felt by what you do with a generated one from a product. This product may not even be real and indirectly experienced by proxy, like football, a soap opera, or it may be direct experience, but even less real, like a videogame. A lot of the things we buy that elicit feelings aren't real - they're made up things, and yet, we feel something from them all the same.

The stripping away of emotion can occur (or a lack of feeling as a symptom of estrangement) and often does with mental illness like depression. The thesis is then, our critical theory, and a part of Frankfurt School critical theory is:by further and further commodifying human activity, thoughts, feelings are further occupied and felt not by something you do, but by something you buy and consume. This phenomenon of replacing human activity with more and more products has the effect of further alienating people from others and themselves, their life experience, and as a result, can lead to feelings of powerlessness, hopelessness, emptiness, estrangement, and a general alienation felt toward ones life. These feelings can lead to depression, butthey are totally rationalbecause the society in which this individual lives is not a mentally healthy one.

Our treatise isnotconcerned with mental illness brought about by physical, biological brain defects, trauma or things like drug addiction, loss of a family member, or poverty.

No magic, no voodoo, no stealing of souls: just human beings as they experience their own life.

I hope that's (finally, finally ...finally) clear.
 

TrollfaceDeux

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Do you recall my sidewalk? A human being defines his or her life by experiences, experiences with loved ones, other people, life events, and most importantly of all,their activity. You can define the experience of being a human being byhuman activity. What they do everyday. And by extension, how that doingmakes them feeleveryday.
Like meth?

It replaces your spontaneous feelings felt by what you do with a generated one from a product. This product may not even be real and indirectly experienced by proxy, like football, a soap opera, or it may be direct experience, but even less real, like a videogame. A lot of the things we buy that elicit feelings aren't real - they're made up things, and yet, we feel something from them all the same.
Isn't the concept of "love," "belonging," and so on also part of product? Would you define the product by the material that it supposes or would you define the product by the intangible nature?


Our treatise is not concerned with mental illness brought about by physical, biological brain defects, trauma or things like drug addiction, loss of a family member, or poverty.
why nottt
 

hodj

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Looks like I won my bet that he'd post a wall of text and no citations. Also typing on the iPad sucks balls.