Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

Barraco Bisi_sl said:

Still in training
Injured
Just killed your dad

I'd say he was having a bad day

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Pretty much.

On the last point, the novelization does a better job of explaining Ren's weakness following Solo's murder.

Stunned by his own action, Kylo Ren fell to his knees. Following through on the act ought to have made him stronger, a part of him believed. Instead, he found himself weakened. He did not hear the roar of the enraged Wookiee above, but he did feel the sting of the shot from the bowcaster as it slammed into his side, knocking him back on the walkway

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Abrams highlighted how powerful the bowcaster was a couple of times, with Han masturbating all over the punch that it packed. I think this was partially done to set up Ren's wound. I mean, he was bleeding out onto the snow and hitting his own side during the Finn/Rey fights.

More important than the bowcaster is that Ren is an unfinished product who hasn't mastered his weakness and is prone to losing focus. Snoke's criticism after Ren is pushed out of Rey's mind (I think this was the same in the novelization as the movie):

"It isn't her strength that is making you fail. It's your weakness

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And yet Snoke sees the vast potential in Ren, not just at the end when he commands they regroup so he can finish Ren's training, but because of his lineage (after Ren credits Snoke's teachings for giving him strength):

"It is far more than that. It is where you are from. What you are made of -- the dark side, and the light. The finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. He must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work. I have you." He paused, reminiscing.

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Finally, I've seen the argument made that Rey was emboldened by the dark side during their fight. The novelization seems to support the notion that her hatred of Ren and anguish over Finn was letting it take hold:

Unarmed, he raised a hand and utilized the Force to fend of one slashing blow after another, until finally her fury penetrated his defenses. Taking a glancing blow to the head and chest, he went down, a prominent burn slashed across his face. Weakened, he reached out towards his lightsaber, trying to draw it to him.

One downward cut, she saw. One quick, final strike, and she could kill him. The landing lights of a shuttle appeared in the distance, cover over the trees in her direction. She had to make a final decision, now.

Kill him, a voice inside her head said. It was amorphous, unidentifiable, raw. Pure vengeful emotion.So easy, she told herself.So quick

She recoiled from it. From the dark side.

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I think Kylo Ren is intentionally exposed as part badass (i.e. stopping blaster fire in mid-air) and part unsure pussy. His journey would be pretty boring if he was a master rapist right at the start of the trilogy through to the end. IMO, it'd also be boring if Rey was purely a student of the light and goodness, so I'm guessing she'll be tempted along the way, just as she was to kill Ren. Who knows, maybe Abrams et. all will do the ballsy thing and tip her over to the dark side.

Vulg_sl said:

Finally, I've seen the argument made that Rey was emboldened by the dark side during their fight. The novelization seems to support the notion that her hatred of Ren and anguish over Finn was letting it take hold:

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Yeah, that was pretty obvious. Its been in every movie. We've seen it with Luke in V and VI and we saw it with Anakin and even young Obi-Wan in the prequels as well IMO. You can see that "dark side kicking in" mode in their eyes, but the good guys recognize it to reel it back in and in the long run learn from it.

Vulg_sl said:

I think Kylo Ren is intentionally exposed as part badass (i.e. stopping blaster fire in mid-air) and part unsure pussy. His journey would be pretty boring if he was a master rapist right at the start of the trilogy through to the end.

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Definitely seems intentional and pretty well done to me. That's another thing I noticed more watching him the second time but knowing the plot already. He's all dualism.

Jive Turkey_sl said:

No. I'm pointing out your contrarianism induced cognitive dissonance coupled with acute persecution complex

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Look at you trying to be perceived as intelligent by using big words. /applaud

None of that undoes any of my statements, which are all true. Your hate for the prequels, and your opinion about my taste in movies has no bearing on facts.

I thought it made sense, to a degree, that Kylo wasn't able to best Rey even having been "better." He had just killed his pappy and while he's partially on the dark side this isn't like instant level up mode. It most likely -will- be in the next movie to a degree, when he starts shitting on Finn/Rey/etc because he has an actual sith trainer while Rey has a potentially mind-wiping Luke who is afraid to do his gig as hers. I enjoyed the entire film, and while it wasn't the best "movie" of the year, it is clearly the best Star Wars movie in the last 30. That's not a bad pedigree to have in the slightest.

Miguex_sl said:

Lets revisit this when its shown in the next couple movies that Rey was already training with Luke when Kylo cleaned house killed everyone, except her. There are so many hints to this in the movie, it amazes me that people aren't picking it up. Maybe if it was spelled out like fucking absolutely everything was in the prequels you love, you would have gotten it. Fuck off.

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Let's say she did train with Luke. That was over 10 years ago, and she would just now be starting to remember any of the training. It should have been a "your powers are weak" moment all over again because again, SHE HASN'T BEEN TRAINING. Kylo has. Non-stop. He also does have battle experience taking out Luke's padawans. Yes, he had chances to kill her and didn't. But it should have played out like ESB where Luke, only beginning his training, fights Vader and gets stomped. Vader had numerous spots where he could have killed Luke but didn't. That doesn't mean Luke wins. Fuck on.

I saw nothing to indicate kylo has been training non stop. I see a bunch of assumptions based on nothing but feels data. For all we know, Snoke has limited his training so he doesn't become too powerful or Kylo was turned to hurt Skywalker and has nothing to do with how powerful he was. We just don't know.

Kylo Ren Is Everything That Anakin Skywalker Should Have Been

True stuff.

kegkilla_sl said:

let's be real here. the actual reason you nerds give the retarded writing and character development a pass is because in your mind you identify with Kylo Ren. you see this angsty, emo dork throwing temper tantrums and you think "this is totally me in high school when i had long hair and listened to Korn!! nobody understands me, definitely not my parents!!"

in your minds, rey beating kylo is a metaphor for the chicks who humiliated you scrubs in gym class.

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#just tryhard things

Am I remembering things wrong or was Keg much better at this in the past? I'm not seeing any pride in his craft.

The Edge_sl said:

But it should have played out like ESB where Luke, only beginning his training, fights Vader and gets stomped. Vader had numerous spots where he could have killed Luke but didn't. That doesn't mean Luke wins. Fuck on.

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Yeah, this would have made more sense. Like Kylo, Vader had taken a bowcaster bolt to the side and a lightsaber slash before he fought Luke. Vader had also just killed his father. Also, Kylo is the Chosen One and is basically perceived as powerful as fuck among all Force users ever.

Famm_sl said:

#just tryhard things

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I guess this is trolling? I'm not sure at this point... The fact he pretty well disagrees with 99% of the posts in this thread yet still comes to shed wisdom and insight on our pathetic drooling of this mediocre installment to the franchise tells me that he's here for the argument. It must excite him or something but hey, it's Christmas so whatever floats your boat bro. I'm sure there's plenty more discussion to be had and you can just keep chiming in. Maybe one day we'll realize just how wrong we are and all the world's problems will be solved.

In all seriousness, it just goes to show you there's more entertainment to enjoy on the forums than any current or future MMO's... lol

Kylo isn't Vader, and Rey isn't Luke. Why are we making these comparisons, aside from just having something to do? Kylo is -clearly- conflicted as fuck in his portrayal, while Vader's conflict only appears at the end. Rey lived a life of darwinism compared to luke hanging out at his "Uncle's place" while a youth.

I mean you couldn't get further from the original portrayals unless you just go "Oh sand, REY IS LUKE!" and "Oh black, KYLO IS VADER!" Kylo was injured and suffering from moral problems. Rey had just been awakened (goddamnit) to the fact that her literal years of survival skills now translate to ass-kicking skills. I mean really. I get that kegkilla is trolling, but c'mon.

Barraco Bisi_sl said:

Still in training
Injured
Just killed your dad

I'd say he was having a bad day

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Add to this "Specifically told to bring her to his master, presumably still alive"

Kyle Maclachlan is taking pictures from the set, I wonder if he will be in the next installment

Famm_sl said:

After watching again I have zero complaints about Kylo and his final fight. They staged the build up to everything just fine, and Rey's situation seems so much more obvious and natural now, pending finding out more about her history of course. He knew from early on she was special, well he knows literally who she is and how powerful she could be. Its all right in the movie but its implied more than stated because they are keeping her full story under wraps for now. Kylo was scared shitless of her too, that was also obvious at times.

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This goes along with my personal thoughts. Having not read any spoilers or other stuff and just saw it yesterday. I think he knows she is Luke's Daughter and missed her when he turned and took out or w/e all the other jedi(Maybe including her mother). So he knows what kind of power she can have, given her family.

I just got back from seeing it again, this time in fake IMAX. In the final lightsaber battle Kylo was toying with Finn and in complete control of that fight, even taking the time to make him suffer before Finn gets off one decent attack. Immediately after Kylo stops messing around and disarms him, then slashes his back so Finn did basically jack shit with the saber. Rey was not doing much better in the first part of the fight, in fact she was trying some rogue like piercing and stabbing while continuously falling back and that wasn't going well at all. It isn't until the blade on blade Kylo offer to train her and her moment of "oh I should be fighting with the force" that she switches fighting style and does more overhead slashes. I'll have to rewatch the Empire scene where Luke loses his hand but it may be a call back to that (edit: or RotJ where Luke takes Vader's hand). Also 100% she had a look of anger / being upset so the dark side was part of that power boost.

Other small details: the last fading of the sun's light going to full dark before Kylo kills Han. Maz talking with Rey and how she says the people she is waiting for are never coming back, but there is someone who can help: Luke. Could also tell where some extra scenes were supposed to be, most notably the snowtroopers vs Finn/Rey and such. Luke was also 100% standing in front of a grave marker at the end. So while the hints of way more story are there we are going to need to wait for the Blu-ray extended edition for the full plot.

kegkilla_sl said:

let's be real here. the actual reason you nerds give the retarded writing and character development a pass is because in your mind you identify with Kylo Ren. you see this angsty, emo dork throwing temper tantrums and you think "this is totally me in high school when i had long hair and listened to Korn!! nobody understands me, definitely not my parents!!"

in your minds, rey beating kylo is a metaphor for the chicks who humiliated you scrubs in gym class.

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Isn't Kylo like thirty in the movie?

Kylo is finished by the way he will always be Reys bitch in the audiences mind after this movie.

So not only is Rey now a one dimensional chosen one type character but the main villain is now a emo loser. So the ending of this movie the way they did not only damaged Rey's character but destroyed Kylo's.

This is starting to remind me of JJ's work in Star Trek where the first movie was passable but the second movie wasn't.