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Elisha Dushku
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The NSA watches you poop.
- Thread starter Beef Supreme_sl
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
BoldW
Molten Core Raider
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It's nice when they care about white people, eh?
BoldW
Molten Core Raider
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This argument is pretty tired, imo. Congress has had like a 10% approval rating for how long now? They keep getting re-elected, esp if they have the money to do so. On the off chance that an outsider gets elected, the established system within Congress teaches them real quick that if they want to stay, they have to play.
Do you actually think that enough people will vote out incumbents when they have the most money to blast out either We'll give you more free shit from rich people, or we'll lower your taxes so you keep more of you earned income so you can hire poor people to clean up after you. Against that, civil liberties and rights take a back seat.
The "system" that is in place does exist, and it's stacked against us voting out our crappy "elected" leaders. Protesting doesn't do shit, as we've been trained to be civil and non-violent. Not to sound like GA, but holding out a sign in front of a building = being ignored. Tell me a time it hasn't been. Iraq War, OWS, whatever. It's a news story for 1-2 weeks and gets some reassurances before The Voice gets down to its finalists or GoT has the Red Wedding, or some Kardashian does whatever the fuck it is they do.
You can't have it both ways and talk about how stupid the average person is and the people they vote for, then all of a sudden be like, oh, well, vote them out if you don't like them spying on you.
I'm going to agree that this is a turning point in the country. Never before have I considered our government not superior to all others. It's a sad day.
Famm
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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That damn ACLU, finally they protect white people (wait, the NSA thing only affects whites?), I mean just look at this long list of frivolous bullshit they have wasted everyone's time with!It's nice when they care about white people, eh?I'm kind of in the same boat having to re-evaluate the ACLU for how they've been one of the very few to actually be critical. I'm a big fan of open-minded skepticism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...iberties_Union
Palum
what Suineg set it to
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The ACLU has always been for preserving freedoms. They have just gone through periods of leadership with agendas that were simply contrarian rather than usefully trying to make positive changes. I don't know why you are bringing up race except that they did much needed work to enforce the civil rights act(s)? They got their start, IIRC, back in the '20s and '30s when there was only white people to help because other races didn't get trials.It's nice when they care about white people, eh?I'm kind of in the same boat having to re-evaluate the ACLU for how they've been one of the very few to actually be critical. I'm a big fan of open-minded skepticism.
BoldW
Molten Core Raider
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I was just playing, as those on this board are wont to do. You are absolutely correct.
iannis
Musty Nester
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The ACLU is fine. I support the ideals. That doesn't mean I support every little fight they decide to pick. The problem with the ACLU is when they get bored and start picking nits. That isn't most of the time but it sure is a lot of the time and that's still far better than it being none of the time.
The ACLU does God's work. They remind me that some lawyers are heroes and not all scumbags, like the soulless sociopaths in Obama's DoJ that abuse the law and bully people to suicide by threatening 3+ decades of prison for a victimless crime, just so they can make examples of people and further their careers.
chaos
Buzzfeed Editor
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Congress has a low approval rating as a whole. Individual members have higher approval ratings and consistently win reelection. This disconnect has been talked about many times in the political thread.
You can absolutely have it both ways, because that is reality. Most people are stupid AND it is up to those same stupid assholes to effect change in our society.
I really don't get how this was the thing. After all the shit that our country has done, this is the thing that makes you say "our government is not superior to all others." We've killed fucking babies, toppled regimes, installed puppets, spied on foreigners and citizens alike, tortured prisoners, the list goes on and on. But the government exercising its authority under properly passed laws? TOO FAR BROS!
chaos
Buzzfeed Editor
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They didn't always do that to other countries. Like the Tuskeegee experiment, or the entire history of our country in relation to race, really. America has done some terrible shit, way worse than this even if every word Snowden says is true. Sure, if you are a privileged white male our country has been pretty good for you. Everyone else just thinks you people are crazy.
fanaskin
Well known agitator
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that's why it would be kinda swell if we didn't shit it up for everyone, and please we are talking the majority including WASPs, not a minority, there's plenty of reasons why spying on everyone is worse than picking on a minority.
you're pretty close to playing a white mans guilt card there.
and relevant about the tuskegee airmen expirement
"Revelation of study failures by awhistleblowerled to major changes in U.S. law and regulation on the protection of participants in clinical studies."
you're pretty close to playing a white mans guilt card there.
and relevant about the tuskegee airmen expirement
"Revelation of study failures by awhistleblowerled to major changes in U.S. law and regulation on the protection of participants in clinical studies."
chaos
Buzzfeed Editor
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I'm not playing any card, I'm laying out the facts bro. This isn't even close to the worst thing our country has done. Not even the same ballpark. To me, it is kind of shocking to see you actually say that since they are collecting the phone records on the majority that is somehow worse than state-sanctioned/mandated oppression of minorities. Or because we're only killing Iraqi babies that's ok. So when BoldW says that about not believing we are superior anymore due to this, I have a hard time understanding it. It doesn't jive with the reality of what our nation is.
fanaskin
Well known agitator
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Well first of all there is blanket censoring of the press, those dead babies never make it to ABC/CBS Prime time so it can sink into the judgement facilities of the average housewife. Those angles aren't covered by "the press" In fact there is a censoring of the press of ANY civilian casualty statistics from war for obvious reasons*. If we thought about the negative aspects of war we wouldn't engage in war, so it's not really the populations fault we aren't receiving the proper feedback to adequately assess what is going on in reality.
Secrecy is also what allowed that Tuskegee airman experiments to start and continue. The continuing theme in all this is that those bad things are allowed to happen because of the SECRECY that surrounds them, sure intelligent individuals dig around read and find out about a fraction of these kinds of things but it doesn't sink into the mass social consciousness because of the SECRECY surrounding those actions.
Yes we act like drunken sailors with the rest of the world that's ANOTHER sign that when both parties agree on something there is literally NO recourse beyond an opinion poll**.
*(Powell Doctrine: secure the support of the homeland so we don't have another "vietnam", where the military was undermined by the press)
**(which didn't work to persuade Syria, Assad getting military support and winning the ground war is what is going to prevent Syria from being decapitated by the USA, USA's "war fatigue" is a factor but ultimatly that is what lost syria, the other sides willingness to give blood to win)
Secrecy is also what allowed that Tuskegee airman experiments to start and continue. The continuing theme in all this is that those bad things are allowed to happen because of the SECRECY that surrounds them, sure intelligent individuals dig around read and find out about a fraction of these kinds of things but it doesn't sink into the mass social consciousness because of the SECRECY surrounding those actions.
Yes we act like drunken sailors with the rest of the world that's ANOTHER sign that when both parties agree on something there is literally NO recourse beyond an opinion poll**.
*(Powell Doctrine: secure the support of the homeland so we don't have another "vietnam", where the military was undermined by the press)
**(which didn't work to persuade Syria, Assad getting military support and winning the ground war is what is going to prevent Syria from being decapitated by the USA, USA's "war fatigue" is a factor but ultimatly that is what lost syria, the other sides willingness to give blood to win)
BoldW
Molten Core Raider
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It's not the worst thing our country has ever done. But it is the worst thing our country IS doing to its citizens right now. I am not understanding how you don't consider this the single most important issue going on right now. Our government is collecting personal information on ALL of its citizens (and if we're talking like 98% or something, that's all). Our government officials have been straight up lying to us, but all you care about is what happens to Snowden. That is mind-boggling, my friend.
At what point do you start questioning their motives and tactics? National curfews, random house searches, all mail being opened and read, civil "testing" of all citizens, what? They've already stolen your personal information and lied to you about it, breaking the 4th amendment and I'm sure a bunch of other laws. Journalistic sources are much more tight-lipped, even with non-classified information due to revelations and that the government is prosecuting whistleblowers at an unheard of rate. Journalists are being prosecuted and pressured by this administration. David Gregory thinks Greenwald should be tried for aiding and abetting. We have secret courts who make secret decisions without as much as writing an opinion on why what they're authorizing is legal.
Yeah, you can't relate any of this to war-time operations. It is not the same thing and not related.
We'll more than likely continue to disagree on this. You've given our government the benefit of the doubt. I do not give them the benefit of the doubt (again, especially when they've already spied on me in secret and then lied about it) until they stop lying and come clean so we can examine and actually have a voice in what's going on, and find ways to root out terrorists without infringing upon my rights, unless I specifically say that's ok - electing an official is not the same as having a public debate about things, as this current administration keeps telling us they love to do.
Am I an asshole because I care about myself more than someone else in another country who might be oppressed right now? /shrug Sounds pretty normal to me.
BrutulTM
Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
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The constitution always gets shit on during war. This stuff is supposed to get rolled back though after the war ends. The problem with this particular war is that there are no conditions of victory or defeat or any presumed end point. It's been 12 years now and the government just keeps getting more heavy handed while the "threat" hardly even exists anymore in any organized fashion. We have fought the the world's greatest armies and won, but we have to give up all of our freedoms to be safe from a handful of pissed off poor people living in the armpit of the planet? Ridiculous.
chaos
Buzzfeed Editor
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It really isn't the worst thing even that our government is doing right now. Stroll on over to the Cops Who Shoot People and Stay On Duty To Shoot More People thread to see some examples of some real shit. This is white people problems compared to that. And it isn't that all I care about is what happens to Snowden, I'm just not buying this narrative of him as the intelligence and policy expert and hero of the people. Saying that Snowden is a shitbag or that the program is legal doesn't mean I approve of the program.
And I refuse to buy everything he says, some of it just insane, with no supporting documentation. I don't understand why anyone would. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and his most extraordinary claims so far have been backed up by nothing other than his word. The word of a man who broke his oath, who took hundreds of thousands of dollars carrying out a mission he suddenly finds reprehensible, who planned for years to betray his government rather than work within the system for change. That is who he is, just from what we know. That isn't "giving the government the benefit of the doubt", that is just not believing every jackass thing someone says. Lumie says he can cure cancer, too.
You really should care more about what the US is doing overseas. In your name, btw. We've already seen those chickens come home to roost in a few different ways with Iran and the Taliban and Al Qaeda. This shit matters. Maybe if people had cared more about it during the 80s a whole chain of events that led to the institution of the Patrio Act could have been avoided.