The NSA watches you poop.

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Magimaster

Trakanon Raider
556
1,386
that's really bullshit when the government erects "laws" that are unfair just so it can protect its continued crimes against the American people, and then accuses you of breaking them when you call them out on it.

just because a law exist doesnt mean its just or right. "I was just following orders" didnt work for us when we tried people at Nuremberg, and it shouldnt work in our own country.

Snowden is an American hero.
Your right. You know, I never did like all those seat belt laws. Not gonna wear one anymore and when the cop pulls me over, I'll just refer them to you. I'm sure it will all work out for me!

Or we can admit the truth. This shit didn't get this way overnight, nor will it be fixed overnight, especially not by some wannabe internet white knight fleeing the country. Your want it fixed? Elect people who will fix it and support them while they try to do so.
 
228
1
that's really bullshit when the government erects "laws" that are unfair just so it can protect its continued crimes against the American people, and then accuses you of breaking them when you call them out on it.

just because a law exist doesnt mean its just or right. "I was just following orders" didnt work for us when we tried people at Nuremberg, and it shouldnt work in our own country.





Snowden is an American hero.
That's critical thinking and most people just aren't comfortable with it these days.

It's insane listening to most of you in this thread. "It was a law, so that makes him bad! Grrr!" Are you fucking serious? So you think Martin Luther King Jr. should have been put in prison? Harriet Tubman? Rosa Parks? Any gay person whom fucks in a state with anti-sodomy laws? Fuck all of you apologist fucking assholes.
 
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Your right. You know, I never did like all those seat belt laws. Not gonna wear one anymore and when the cop pulls me over, I'll just refer them to you. I'm sure it will all work out for me!

Or we can admit the truth. This shit didn't get this way overnight, nor will it be fixed overnight, especially not by some wannabe internet white knight fleeing the country. Your want it fixed? Elect people who will fix it and support them while they try to do so.
You're*, you fucking moron.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
<Gold Donor>
81,818
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Slavery was law for a while too. If you ran away, YOU BROKE THE LAW Wakandan.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
<Gold Donor>
81,818
163,636
Your right. You know, I never did like all those seat belt laws. Not gonna wear one anymore and when the cop pulls me over, I'll just refer them to you. I'm sure it will all work out for me!

Or we can admit the truth. This shit didn't get this way overnight, nor will it be fixed overnight, especially not by some wannabe internet white knight fleeing the country. Your want it fixed? Elect people who will fix it and support them while they try to do so.
2 centuries of slavery, civil rights, interracial marriage, jim crow laws, school segregation, prohibition, nisei camps, lack of universal suffrage, child labor, forced resettlement of entire peoples & many more!

SUCK MAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH DICK
 

TrollfaceDeux

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
<Bronze Donator>
19,577
3,743
2 centuries of slavery, civil rights, interracial marriage, jim crow laws, school segregation, prohibition, nisei camps, lack of universal suffrage, child labor, forced resettlement of entire peoples & many more!

SUCK MAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH DICK
EDIT: apparently those things are bad and i am trying too hard. i guess sucking dick is the only option here.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
<Gold Donor>
81,818
163,636
well clearly since no law is ever wrong, we should have kept things just the way they were since 1789.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,533
599
that's really bullshit when the government erects "laws" that are unfair just so it can protect its continued crimes against the American people, and then accuses you of breaking them when you call them out on it.

just because a law exist doesnt mean its just or right. "I was just following orders" didnt work for us when we tried people at Nuremberg, and it shouldnt work in our own country. Snowden is an American hero.
I'm not about to call him a hero because I don't know his real motivations (stopped clocks and etc.) but I otherwise agree with Araysar particularly that "just following orders" isn't an excuse. Whatever his reason, Snowdwen revealing the NSA Surveillance State was a Good Thing (tm).
 

Magimaster

Trakanon Raider
556
1,386
2 centuries of slavery, civil rights, interracial marriage, jim crow laws, school segregation, prohibition, nisei camps, lack of universal suffrage, child labor, forced resettlement of entire peoples & many more!

SUCK MAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH DICK
And that's exactly my point. All those things took time to stop, and required far more effort than one man throwing out small pieces of information and then disappearing into the hands of our , how do we say, 'least likely allies'? Instead of getting ALL his information out there, he, through his own actions, has turned this into a circus about himself, which runs counter to his claimed objective of exposing the truth. This isn't some movie where the righteous hero says a heroic speech and the mighty evil shadow government falls to its knees in defeat. This is reality and the reality is its gonna take more than this guys word and what little information he has leaked to change things. We need more and instead we have Wikileaks v2.0 which will probably be just as weak as they were since he seems to want to string this fiasco out, which only serves to reduce the impact of his message.
 
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And that's exactly my point. All those things took time to stop, and required far more effort than one man throwing out small pieces of information and then disappearing into the hands of our , how do we say, 'least likely allies'? Instead of getting ALL his information out there, he, through his own actions, has turned this into a circus about himself, which runs counter to his claimed objective of exposing the truth. This isn't some movie where the righteous hero says a heroic speech and the mighty evil shadow government falls to its knees in defeat. This is reality and the reality is its gonna take more than this guys word and what little information he has leaked to change things. We need more and instead we have Wikileaks v2.0 which will probably be just as weak as they were since he seems to want to string this fiasco out, which only serves to reduce the impact of his message.
So Harriet Tubman should have been captured and imprisoned/executed for aiding the release of slaves from the south? I feel like you're fucking giving me brain cancer over here, man.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,565
24,193
If the government had their way, they would keep everything they do in the dark, and make saying anything about anything illegal. They would outlaw the very idea of a free press if they could.

Thankfully, we've got a flimsy old piece of paper that limits the powers of the government. But that piece of paper ONLY works when people hold their government to it. It's not magic, it doesn't prevent abuses by itself.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
<Gold Donor>
81,818
163,636
And that's exactly my point. All those things took time to stop, and required far more effort than one man throwing out small pieces of information and then disappearing into the hands of our , how do we say, 'least likely allies'? Instead of getting ALL his information out there, he, through his own actions, has turned this into a circus about himself, which runs counter to his claimed objective of exposing the truth. This isn't some movie where the righteous hero says a heroic speech and the mighty evil shadow government falls to its knees in defeat. This is reality and the reality is its gonna take more than this guys word and what little information he has leaked to change things. We need more and instead we have Wikileaks v2.0 which will probably be just as weak as they were since he seems to want to string this fiasco out, which only serves to reduce the impact of his message.
I agree. That's why we need 100 Snowdens, A thousand, hell ten thousand Snowdens. It can't be just one.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,657
I don't know about an American Hero -- but he damn sure is being persecuted to a degree completely out of proportion to his offenses. I don't know that Randy Weaver (ruby ridge) was an american hero either.

The more they escalate the rhetoric in pursuit of Snowden the more sinister the authorities seem to become and the less sinister Snowden himself seems to be. It seems like at this point if Russia were to extradite him Snowden would be bound for some secret prison somewhere to be tortured by rats. And that's fucked up. Snowden or those harboring him don't even have to make that argument -- the fucking authority trying to capture him is making it perfectly well all by itself.

Completely fucked up.

Folk Hero maybe, which is an entirely different beast than American Hero. We make plenty of our criminals and morally/ethically ambiguous types into Folk Heroes. American Hero is more reserved for stuff like Martin Luther King, The 9/11 First Responders, and the six dudes on Seal Team Six.
 

TrollfaceDeux

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
<Bronze Donator>
19,577
3,743
araysar is our next washington

KWLltUS.jpg
 

BoldW

Molten Core Raider
2,081
25
We need more and instead we have Wikileaks v2.0 which will probably be just as weak as they were since he seems to want to string this fiasco out, which only serves to reduce the impact of his message.
His stringing out things has puzzled me. Is he being advised via his journalistic contacts or wikileak lawyers that this is the best course of action? Is he letting it out piecemeal to judge reactions, and then counter-leak? So far he has been pretty selective and obviously hasn't disclosed technical information and more intricate details of the programs yet. His ability so far to get the information and desseminate it, avoid capture, garner support and allies, again like wikileaks and their lawyers (Who better than Assange to tell help you evade the US's most hellish Wrath) has been pretty impressive, if you think about. If you stole a thumb-drive or three full of info and have the mother-effin' U S of A after you, do you really think you would have gotten as far as he has? For a high-school dropout that's pretty impressive, especially if you look at the way the media is portraying him. While the media will try to turn you against him for being "uneducated", we have a long list of drop-outs who went on to do amazing things.

I think it's already been mentioned that his best chance of evading capture is to go to through those countries (The ones that retaliate to our accusations of human rights violations by demonstrating our own). Anyone else will just hand him right on over. He has few choices. Unless he's briefing governments along his world tour, and maybe even if he is, it's his only real choice for freedom. There aren't many places he can go to or go through.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
<Gold Donor>
81,818
163,636
I don't know about an American Hero -- but he damn sure is being persecuted to a degree completely out of proportion to his offenses. I don't know that Randy Weaver (ruby ridge) was an american hero either.

The more they escalate the rhetoric in pursuit of Snowden the more sinister the authorities seem to become and the less sinister Snowden himself seems to be. It seems like at this point if Russia were to extradite him Snowden would be bound for some secret prison somewhere to be tortured by rats. And that's fucked up. Snowden or those harboring him don't even have to make that argument -- the fucking authority trying to capture him is making it perfectly well all by itself.

Completely fucked up.

Folk Hero maybe, which is an entirely different beast than American Hero. We make plenty of our criminals and morally/ethically ambiguous types into Folk Heroes. American Hero is more reserved for stuff like Martin Luther King, The 9/11 First Responders, and the six dudes on Seal Team Six.
Its laughable to compare weaver with snowden. Why would you even do that? Because they both "broke laws"?
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
<Gold Donor>
81,818
163,636
His stringing out things has puzzled me. Is he being advised via his journalistic contacts or wikileak lawyers that this is the best course of action? Is he letting it out piecemeal to judge reactions, and then counter-leak? So far he has been pretty selective and obviously hasn't disclosed technical information and more intricate details of the programs yet. His ability so far to get the information and desseminate it, avoid capture, garner support and allies, again like wikileaks and their lawyers (Who better than Assange to tell help you evade the US's most hellish Wrath) has been pretty impressive, if you think about. If you stole a thumb-drive or three full of info and have the mother-effin' U S of A after you, do you really think you would have gotten as far as he has? For a high-school dropout that's pretty impressive, especially if you look at the way the media is portraying him. While the media will try to turn you against him for being "uneducated", we have a long list of drop-outs who went on to do amazing things.

I think it's already been mentioned that his best chance of evading capture is to go to through those countries (The ones that retaliate to our accusations of human rights violations by demonstrating our own). Anyone else will just hand him right on over. He has few choices. Unless he's briefing governments along his world tour, and maybe even if he is, it's his only real choice for freedom. There aren't many places he can go to or go through.
My guess is that he's leaking it piecemeal to get coverage going longer than 24-72 hours.

He basically ruined his entire life over this, might as well to get the maximum effect from it
 

Torrid

Molten Core Raider
926
611
It also doesn't help his case that he decided the best places to go hide and complain about government abuses are countries like Russia or China
Neither China, Russia, or Cuba are his ultimate destination. Ecuador is a democratic republic with a popular president. Their official currency is actually the USD. Snowden also made past statements of preferring asylum in Iceland. Basically his options are limited because most countries would rather give up a political prisoner and ignore international law rather than endure the wrath of the United States. We've already seen this with Sweden and Britain's handling of Assange. So he has to travel through countries that aren't easily bullied. That doesn't mean he gave them anything.

Snowden made previous statements of staying in Hong Kong, but it's worth noting that his destination options from Hawaii were limited and he wanted to go some place that would not arrest him immediately on the request of the US before he could finish speaking to the press and explain his actions. You also cannot ignore that Hong Kong also happens to be freer than mainland China, and even hasannualTiananmen Square rallies numbering in the tens of thousands. Hong Kong scores 54 on thePress Freedom Index-- the United States scores 47. The US hasn't been the freest place on earth for a long time.

We are also not at war with Russia or China. China is our largest trade partner and even the media calls Russia a 'frienemy'. The plutocrats who shipped all our jobs and capital overseas to our so-called enemy to become the richest CEOs in history did far more damage to this country than Snowden ever could. China is richer at our expense because we taught them how to build our shit while watching them put up suicide nets. We are powerful because of our economy, and we have a massive military because we can afford it.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,657
Look dude, I'm saying it takes more than "broke an unjust law" to become an Real American Hero. You can say that what Snowden did is justifiable and make that argument -- it's a very good argument to have. You can't make the argument that the oath-breaking by itself is right. Hell, Weaver is more of a "True American Hero" than Snowden is. You don't even give a fuck about Snowden yourself, you give a fuck about the ideal of transparency that he has temporarily become associated with. Stop conflating the man and the ideal if you want him to be more than a Folk Hero.

Personally I think Snowden should receive the judgement of his peers on American soil by a (PUBLIC) American court. He has undeniably committed a crime and needs to task for that. But living for 15 years in habitual paranoia in exile in some shithole third world country seems entirely out of proportion as well. He did break his bond -- and if the cause was truly just then he should be content with the responsibility of his action. THAT would serve to make the man himself more heroic.