The Zionists are whining thread

Xequecal_sl said:

The Palestinians could have peace if they wanted it, yes. However, they would still be second-class citizens with no rights, no citizenship, and a livelihood totally dependent on the whims of the Israeli state. Remember, the Israeli Arabs that remained in Israel instead of leaving during the 1948 war were essentially slaves for almost 20 years. They could be arbitrarily detained, have their property seized, or even summarily executed without trial, any kind of judicial process, or any kind of compensation. Also remember that these were the Arabs that stuck around, the current Palestinian population also carries the stigma of being viewed as traitors that left Israel in 1948 with the expectation of moving right back in after the Arab nations had expelled the Jews. Do you really think Israel would let them form their own state or grant them equal rights, even if they were to stop shooting off rockets and suicide bombing things? It's not very likely.

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I'm not sure what aspect of nonsense to tackle first here. First off, last time I checked Palestinians don't want to be Israeli citizens, so what's this bullshit about them being second class citizens with no naturalization process available? If Mexicans were firing rockets at your kids' school, you'd be cool with offering them a naturalization process lol? However, let's play along in your fantasy universe and assume that was the case, because it demonstrates a wonderful irony. 20% of Israel's population is ARAB, have citizenship, can own land, can vote, and they even currently hold political seats in the Knesset. Female Arab Israelis, despite being victims of their religion/culture, are protected by Israeli law, which ensures that honor killings and other stupid Islamic gender biased bullshit is fully prosecuted. Go to Israel and talk to an Arab Israeli and ask them if they would trade their citizenship for a Jordanian or Egyptian one and they will categorically tell you that they'd rather fucking die. How many Jews/Israelis are allowed to live, let alone be citizens, in Arab countries? Please let me know ok? The irony is that Arabs have more rights in Israel than they do in Arab countries. If they stopped firing rockets at Israeli power plants with the intention of turning the entire region (including their own) into a radiation wasteland, focused their money/resources into building stoplights, city halls, and power plants rather than spending it on rockets and terrorist salaries-- maybe, just maybe, they could get their shit together and have a country that doesn't need every crumb inspected as it enters/leaves the border.

Here are my videos for the day for those of you who have never actually been to the region to witness the reality for themselves:

Palestinian terrorists shooting rockets from a school
Palestinian terrorists shooting rockets from a school - YouTube

Israeli TV - 14 year old Suicide Bomber stopped at Shechem checkpoint
Israeli TV - 14 year old Suicide Bomber - YouTube

Arab kids hit by israeli car
Palestinian boy run over in East Jerusalem - YouTube

Wife of Hamas MP Al-Hayya: "A Woman's Role Is to Instill Love of Jihad and Martyrdom in Her Children"
Wife of Hamas MP Al-Hayya: A Womans Role Is to Instill Love of Jihad and Martyrdom in Her Children - YouTube

Hamas human shield confession
Hamas - Human Shield Confession - YouTube

Teenage Female Suicide Bomber tries to blow up the jewish doctor that saved her life
Female Suicide Bomber - Fail and Captured in Israeli Border - YouTube

Palestinian Religious Leader: "Muslims Will Rule Entire World"
Palestinian Religious Leader: Muslims Will Rule Entire World - YouTube

Frenzied Wombat, out of curiosity how do you think this should be resolved? What do you think the best solution is for both parties that's fair?

Your questions are contradictory

Malakriss_sl said:

Your questions are contradictory

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They're two different questions, with two different possible answers if he so chooses. I really don't see the problem with that.

Abefroman_sl said:

Relatives accuse Israeli cops of attacking U.S. citizen - CNN.com

Interesting to see the U.S response to this. Alsowho the fuck would send their child to that part of the world to visit relatives. Fucking Skype that shit or something or have them come here.

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Half the forum seems to think it is a functional liberal western democracy and of course safe to visit!

There is no near term solution that is "fair" as long as radical Islamic tenets are the motivating factors behind Palestinian actions. The solution is education and modernism. Until Palestinian children education switches from teaching the value of martyring yourself to something like math/history, they are not only indoctrinating hate during a susceptible period of child development, but are also guaranteeing an endless cycle of violence. Not only between Palestinians and Israelis, but between the Palestinians themselves. If Israel evacuated its populace right now and abandoned it to the Palestinians, it is with 100% CERTAINTY that they would not start working on a "Glorious Palestine" but just start killing each other, like every other 100% Muslim country out there. In the Palestinians case, it would be Fatah vs Hamas. Personally, I'd prefer a modern democratic country that invents tech and medicine there than yet another tribal warzone that provides nothing.

The "fair" solution is that the Pallies stop firing rockets, stop electing terrorist organizations whose primary doctrine is to kill the ones you're supposedly trying to make peace with, and stop sending their kids to the front lines to assault soldiers. Then prove to the Israelis as well as the rest of the world that you somewhat have your shit together, and that if you do get your own country, it won't immediately be plunged into civil war. That means people in the current West Bank and Gaza share common goals and beliefs besides just killing Israelis. The pallies want their own country, but the reality is their populace has radically different views of what that country should be founded on, just like the rest of the shit-hole middle east.

If they could accomplish the above, I have little doubt that they'd get their own country. But the peaceful majority doesn't matter. All that matters is that kids are blowing themselves up, a terrorist organization runs the show, and rockets will continue to be fired on Israel. There is no fair solution as long as radical Islam runs the government, because the concept of "fairness" doesn't exist in a culture that not only fails to respect others' beliefs, but calls for their elimination. Fairness and radical Islam is an Oxymoron.

Chris_sl said:

Half the forum seems to think it is a functional liberal western democracy and of course safe to visit!

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It's safe to visit if you don't send your kid from the US to hang with kids throwing rocks at soldiers you simpleton. Not to mention people get fucking wrongly beaten all over the world in functional democracies by cops for no good reason every fucking day.

Fucking Britain, obviously not a liberal functional democracy, beating up kids and all. Obviously not safe to visit either. Your logic is Full retard.
London Riots - Manchester Riot Police Beat Teenagers On Bikes - YouTube

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:

I'm not sure what aspect of nonsense to tackle first here. First off, last time I checked Palestinians don't want to be Israeli citizens, so what's this bullshit about them being second class citizens with no naturalization process available? If Mexicans were firing rockets at your kids' school, you'd be cool with offering them a naturalization process lol? However, let's play along in your fantasy universe and assume that was the case, because it demonstrates a wonderful irony. 20% of Israel's population is ARAB, have citizenship, can own land, can vote, and they even currently hold political seats in the Knesset. Female Arab Israelis, despite being victims of their religion/culture, are protected by Israeli law, which ensures that honor killings and other stupid Islamic gender biased bullshit is fully prosecuted. Go to Israel and talk to an Arab Israeli and ask them if they would trade their citizenship for a Jordanian or Egyptian one and they will categorically tell you that they'd rather fucking die. How many Jews/Israelis are allowed to live, let alone be citizens, in Arab countries? Please let me know ok? The irony is that Arabs have more rights in Israel than they do in Arab countries. If they stopped firing rockets at Israeli power plants with the intention of turning the entire region (including their own) into a radiation wasteland, focused their money/resources into building stoplights, city halls, and power plants rather than spending it on rockets and terrorist salaries-- maybe, just maybe, they could get their shit together and have a country that doesn't need every crumb inspected as it enters/leaves the border.

Here are my videos for the day for those of you who have never actually been to the region to witness the reality for themselves:

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You missed the entire point. Yes, the Israeli Arabs have all those rightsnow.However, they had to wait almost 20 years (1948-1968) of being treated almost as outright slaves before they began to receive these rights. The fact is, if the "loyal" Arabs that never engaged in violence and stuck around in Israel despite every indication that the Israel was going to lose and have their new nation overthrown still got 20 years of slavery, that doesn't bode well for the Palestinians if they lay down their arms. What good is it going to do them if they accept Israel's authority? They're pretty much guaranteed to have no rights until the current crop of IDF conscriptees has died and there's noone remaining alive that remembers the violence. You think Israel is going to let them have their own state? Having their own state implies they have a military. Even if the Palestinians give them 50 years of peace, Israel still isn't going to suffer the existence of an Arab Muslim military force 500 feet from Jerusalem and you damn well know it.

I mean, seriously, the current conflict is all about the Gaza Strip. Look at the West Bank. There's no rockets coming out of there and the Second Intifada ended 10 years ago. What have the Palestinian residents there gained? Yeah, they have peace, but they're still stateless persons with no rights or citizenship that can have their property arbitrarily destroyed or seized at any time with no compensation. Israel will come and wreck all your shit simply because you're related to a Palestinian criminal/terrorist, even if said terrorist is in the Gaza Strip and you haven't had contact with them for years. If some Jews want to build another settlement and your "property" (Is it really property if it can just be taken at a whim?) is in the way, well tough shit for you. Israel evenadmitsthat they use house demolition for this purpose.

The declared objective of house demolitions was deterrence, achieved by harming the relatives of Palestinians who carried out, or were suspected of involvement in carrying out, attacks against Israeli citizens and soldiers. Indeed, the main victims of the demolitions were family members, among them women, the elderly, and children, who bore no responsibility for the acts of their relative and were not suspected of involvement in any offense. In the vast majority of house demolitions, the person because of whom the house was demolished no longer lived in the house, either because he was "wanted" by Israel and was in hiding, or because he was being held by Israel and was awaiting a long prison sentence, or because he had been killed by security forces or in the attack he carried out.

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Examples of Palestinians killing Israeli civilians doesn't really phase me either, because Israel has killed literally an order of magnitude more civilians in this conflict than the Palestinians have and the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields can't account for all of that. It's much better than it used to be but in the early 80s Israel regularly imposed dusk-to-dawn curfews, would additionally declare large swaths of the Territories to be off limits, and would shoot violators on sight. The areas declared off limits would constantly shift and many people got massacred without even knowing they were in no-man's land. Sometimes the curfews were even 24/7, meaning Palestinians were not allowed to leave their homesat all.Why do you think the First Intifada got started? It was severe repression like this. The Palestinians certainly didn't suddenly decide they hated the Jews more than they did the previous 30 years. Fun fact: Israelicivilianskilled more Palestinians during the First Intifada than the total number of Israeli civilians killed in that entire conflict. Even if you give Israel's armed forces a complete pass on everything, Israel still loses the morality game.

Finally, people living Western countries, especially the United States, really have no right to criticize Arab and/or Muslim cultural traditions, even stuff like honor killings. It's a totally different culture. What, you think there's more respect for human life in Western culture? In many US states it is perfectly legal to shoot someone for committing minor theft or vandalism, even if noone's life or health is threatened. Remember, killing someone for stealing $50? Perfectly fine. Killing someone for adultery or "shaming the family"? You're an ignorant backwards heathen.

Xequecal_sl said:

Remember, killing someone for stealing $50? Perfectly fine. Killing someone for adultery or "shaming the family"? You're an ignorant backwards heathen.

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'Murica

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:

If Israel evacuated its populace right now and abandoned it to the Palestinians, it is with 100% CERTAINTY that they would not start working on a "Glorious Palestine" but just start killing each other, like every other 100% Muslim country out there.

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It's comments like this that makes taking anything else you say seriously almost impossible. Israel is a nuclear power with a conscripted army and backing from one of the most powerful nations in the world while Palestine is a fractured state surrounded by all sides by 18 meter high walls, check points controlling all access points in and out of, has virtually no economy and a 55%+ unemployment rate. Palestine is a ghetto, being repressed by a much greater power with no legal means to assert any of their rights. With those facts in mind how should Palestine resist the theft of their land by the Israelis? What incentive does Israel have to ever end the conflict as Palestine poses literally no threat to them? When literally any act of aggression by Palestinians benefits Israel and there is no negative for them to continue the occupation, why would it ever end?

Moogalak_sl said:

The blood coming from your heart is all over your post.

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haha, the assessment is accurate. I'm sorry that the reality of the situation is what it is and makes me sound like I'm a bleeding heart but I can't change facts? My bad for trying to have some sort of you know, discussion about the problem and debating solutions rather than demonizing both sides.

lendarios_sl said:

Man, I'm a very anti Israeli, but this whole thing with the teenager that was kidnapped and murder has me irked. It is the kind of thing that you will go to war for, and I cant blame them for it

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This is the crux of it. If you follow along both sides in the conflict you can pretty easily understand how both sides ended up where they are and I'm sure you could make justifications for actions both sides have taken. They have both done very terrible things to each other but the reality of the situation is a very negative one for the Palestinians with few options and fewer as time goes on while the conflict is very beneficial to the the Israeli's as it affords them opportunities to seize land and strengthen their positions (settlements). In doing so Israel further marginalizes and hardens the Palestinians against them, which in turn leads to more resistance, which leads to further justification for security "actions" against the Palestinians. It's a cycle without an end unless both parties step up to the negotiating table with good intentions.

My best case scenario for a resolution would be a single democratic state with Jews maintaining the ability to settle their people there, as well as the Palestinians having a right of return for their refugees. It would include some sort of compensation to the Palestinians who have lost their homes and land and include a truth and reconciliation commission ala South Africa/Rwanda. The biggest hurdles to this are mostly Israel's problems, it's identification as a Jewish state and their necessity to maintain a Jewish majority in the Israeli population. A Palestinian state just doesn't seem plausible anymore due to how badly the territory has been chopped up.

Tripamang_sl said:

My best case scenario for a resolution would be a single democratic state with Jews maintaining the ability to settle their people there, as well as the Palestinians having a right of return for their refugees. It would include some sort of compensation to the Palestinians who have lost their homes and land and include a truth and reconciliation commission ala South Africa/Rwanda.The biggest hurdles to this are mostly Israel's problems, it's identification as a Jewish state and their necessity to maintain a Jewish majority in the Israeli population.A Palestinian state just doesn't seem plausible anymore due to how badly the territory has been chopped up.

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Wow, you see all the problems on the Israeli side huh?

Tripamang_sl said:

It's comments like this that makes taking anything else you say seriously almost impossible. Israel is a nuclear power with a conscripted army and backing from one of the most powerful nations in the world while Palestine is a fractured state surrounded by all sides by 18 meter high walls, check points controlling all access points in and out of, has virtually no economy and a 55%+ unemployment rate. Palestine is a ghetto, being repressed by a much greater power with no legal means to assert any of their rights. With those facts in mind how should Palestine resist the theft of their land by the Israelis? What incentive does Israel have to ever end the conflict as Palestine poses literally no threat to them? When literally any act of aggression by Palestinians benefits Israel and there is no negative for them to continue the occupation, why would it ever end?

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tripamang_sl said:

What incentive does Israel have to ever end the conflict as Palestine poses literally no threat to them?

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It's comments like this that demonstrate that you have absolutely zero understanding of what daily life is like over in Israel. Go spend a week in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and see for yourself what impact this conflict has had on people's daily lives. Your statement above shows such extreme ignorance about the reality and impact living next to terrorists has on the way you conduct your life. Here's just a small sample for what "incentive" Israel has to make peace:

1) Travel in and out of Israel, whether your white, an arab, or even a Jew is a fucking serious pain in the ass. Expect to be questioned and searched at length before you're even allowed to set foot on the plane.

2) Everywhere you walk there are armed military personnel, characteristic of any area that is under threat of terrorist attack. Fun stuff

3) Safe rooms and bunkers have to be built into every school and public building, with constant training of children putting on gas masks and evacuating

4) Swaths of the population being treated for anxiety because of air raid sirens constantly going off. You only hear about large scale rocket attacks on the news, but the reality is that at least a few rockets rain down EVERY day.

5) Schools/businesses constantly being closed because of rocket attacks, vandalism, or terrorist threats

6) Parents intentionally sending their kids to school late, because the pallies fire their missiles at 8am, because that's the time when school starts. Imagine sitting in your house every day while your kid walks to school and the air raid sirens go off. That's a reality for many Israelis.

The list goes on and on. Of course, there is also the cost to deal with all of the above, which is HUGE. If you don't think the desire to truly live free, without the anxiety of terror constantly looming over your head is "incentive", then you really have no idea what it is to live under the constant threat of destruction.


Also, I fail to understand the context of your answer in respect to my quote. Do you deny the fact that if Israel suddenly "disappeared" that the Palestinians would immediately start a civil war, or even more likely, be immediately annexed by Jordan or Egypt, since that "Palestinian land" was never for the Palestinians when they owned the land prior to 1967? How about you compare Israeli treatment of Palestinians to that of Jordan or Egypt? Whose killed more Palestinians, Jordan or Israel?

khalid_sl said:

Wow, you see all the problems on the Israeli side huh?

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I was listing major hurdles for a single state solution and how Israel would have the biggest objections, so still not sure what your problem is. Israel's need to be labeled as a Jewish state is one of the main crux's for previous failed negotiations and why they're terrified of a single state solution. In a single state solution they become minorities in Israel. Israel as a Jewish state is a theocracy with democratic principles, but because it favors one group of people over others you couldn't really call it democracy. A true democracy would be required for a single state solution.

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:

It's comments like this that demonstrate that you have absolutely zero understanding of what daily life is like over in Israel. Go spend a week in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and see for yourself what impact this conflict has had on people's daily lives. Your statement above shows such extreme ignorance about the reality and impact living next to terrorists has on the way you conduct your life.

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You did exactly what I thought you would, you completely avoided answering any questions from the Palestinian perspective and went full on "This is why you should sympathize with Israel" and nothing else matters. You're just a shill for the Israeli side and have zero interest in having an honest discussion about how to resolve the situation because you're so blinded by personal bias. You're no better than the crazies on the other side who think Israel should be wiped off the map. I don't think you could throw a rock without hitting a victim on either side of the conflict.

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:

Also, I fail to understand the context of your answer in respect to my quote. Do you deny the fact that if Israel suddenly "disappeared" that the Palestinians would immediately start a civil war, or even more likely, be immediately annexed by Jordan or Egypt, since that "Palestinian land" was never for the Palestinians when they owned the land prior to 1967? How about you compare Israeli treatment of Palestinians to that of Jordan or Egypt? Whose killed more Palestinians, Jordan or Israel?

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The overt prejudice of assuming that every 100% Muslim country would devolve into internal strife makes it hard to take the rest of your argument seriously, I'm not sure how you missed that. I have no idea what the middle east would look like if the British hadn't divided it the way they did or if Israel never existed and I have no intention of speculating.

I'm not going to compare Israel's treatment of Palestinians to other countries, and I shouldn't have to. These are people and should be treated with respect and humanity regardless of how shitty other nations have treated them. The hurdles you try to jump through to justify the current situation are ridiculous.