The Zionists are whining thread

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Frenzied Wombat

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If you're directing that message to Badabidi he's making the same argument you are.
Yup, you're right, I read his post wrong, I took his Nazi analogy sarcastically. /hugs Badabidi

Go have some coffee cuz and come back to explain away how many Palestinians civilians will die in the next couple days because of Israeli attacks!
Now that I've had my coffee.. I don't need to explain civilian casualties when their duly elected leadership has already done so on the world stage:Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri: Human-Shield Policy Is Effecive - YouTube
 

Lithose

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Can you give your source to those chicago/palestine comparison figures? Not that I don't believe you, but I want to site them in another debate I'm watching, and I am sure they will want a source.
Wikipedia, but the sources they cite are solid. One is theChicago annual crimereport. And then the Palestinian data came fromB'tselemand Israel's foreign affairs office. But the wikipedia has the numbers collected (I know the Wiki sources are good because I used them before in arguing with someone in another thread. B'tselem is used as sourcing for theU.N.) The actual wiki pages areChicago CrimeandIsrael-Palestenian Conflict.

The wiki says, 1500 of those, were caused by the Palestinian on Palestinian fighting, during the elections years ago. I can't be sure on that one, though.
 

fanaskin

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Now that I've had my coffee.. I don't need to explain civilian casualties when their duly elected leadership has already done so on the world stage:Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri: Human-Shield Policy Is Effecive - YouTube
A Gaza hospital director says foreign activists, including a US citizen, are working as human shields to try to protect patients in the facility from Israeli strikes.
Read more here:American among volunteer human shields at Gaza hospital | Middle East | McClatchy DC

probably is effective in assymetric warfare.
 

Cad

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On the flip side, I wonder if surrounding an Israeli hospital with kids would make it not a viable Palestinian target for rockets, or instead the most viable target?
 

Tuco

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On the flip side, I wonder if surrounding an Israeli hospital with kids would make it not a viable Palestinian target for rockets, or instead the most viable target?
Would that being true make it acceptable for Israel to bomb hospitals?

There's really no good answer when a high-value target moves into a hospital/school.
 

Cad

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Would that being true make it acceptable for Israel to bomb hospitals?

There's really no good answer when a high-value target moves into a hospital/school.
No but it would show the motivation of each side which is the point.
 

iannis

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It's not. I can understand how an American would volunteer for that and why he might hope that it will matter even a little bit. But it won't.

I have serious doubts as to if the State Department is gauranteeing the safety of American citizens in gaza this month. I'm sure he's been told that if he dies no one is going to do anything about it. And that ain't bluster.

Brave, stupid, and depending on the man even possibly admirable. But not effective.
 

Abefroman

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If you hang around known targets that you have been warned to stay away from you deserve to get blown up. Best way to deal with people who want to be human shields is to give them their wish.
 

fanaskin

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This was only two years ago

LIVE BLOG: Day 4 of Israel-Gaza conflict 2012 Israel News | Haaretz

Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years."
The Yeshiva World LIVE BLOG DAY 4: Operation Pillar Of Defense [UPDATED 11:59PM IL] Frum Jewish News

Deputy Prime Minister (Shas) Eli Yishai: "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages, destroying all the infrastructure including roads and water."

When asked if he fears public outcry, he stated "Now that Tel Aviv had sirens they too will remain silent".
Gilad Sharon - the son of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon - wrote an Op-Ed in the Jerusalem Post saying:

"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn't stop with Hiroshima - the Japanese weren't surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.

"There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing."
 

fanaskin

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It's not. I can understand how an American would volunteer for that and why he might hope that it will matter even a little bit. But it won't.

I have serious doubts as to if the State Department is gauranteeing the safety of American citizens in gaza this month. I'm sure he's been told that if he dies no one is going to do anything about it. And that ain't bluster.

Brave, stupid, and depending on the man even possibly admirable. But not effective.
When I say effective, it might not prevent individual bombings but it's hard to sell people internationally on the idea that bombing schools, churches, hospitals and tv stations are legitimate military targets, even reading the idf's version, they complain that hamas uses schools to recruit for example, which the optics of it doesn't look right when theidf has a large presence in israeli schools. it brings international pressure on israel which has to jump through hoops to justify itself.

Why Does Israel Target Hamas Infrastructure in Judea and Samaria?
 

fanaskin

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Between we don't want to live with them and can't let them control any territory that doesn't leave much

Did Benjamin Netanyahu just say what he really thinks about a two-state solution?
Netanyahu has stressed often in the past that he doesn't want Israel to become a binational state - implying that he favors some kind of accommodation with and separation from the Palestinians. But on Friday he made explicit that this could not extend to full Palestinian sovereignty. Why? Because, given the march of Islamic extremism across the Middle East, he said, Israel simply cannot afford to give up control over the territory immediately to its east, including the eastern border - that is, the border between Israel and Jordan, and the West Bank and Jordan.
The priority right now, Netanyahu stressed, was to "take care of Hamas." But the wider lesson of the current escalation was that Israel had to ensure that "we don't get another Gaza in Judea and Samaria." Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, "I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan."
 

Frenzied Wombat

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Between we don't want to live with them and can't let them control any territory that doesn't leave much

Did Benjamin Netanyahu just say what he really thinks about a two-state solution?
Well, considering relinquishing control has only resulted in more aggression against Israel, why the hell would they under current circumstances? You've got all of the middle east killing each other right now, are you expecting Israel to get a reprieve of some sort? They withdrew from Gaza under the promise of peace, and instead the area immediately devolved into a mini civil war which then proceeded to elect a terrorist government whose mandate is the destruction of Israel. If I was an Israeli I'd be pretty bitter that by un-occupying Gaza under the promise of peace by the Palestinians, instead they go ahead and elect an organization whose mandate is my populace's genocide. Sure, let's remove all security forces from the West Bank, because I'm sure once we leave missiles from all over the middle east won't be immediately trucked in and fired at us.

I think this guy explains it well:How Israel is fighting for its life | New York Post

?According to Israel?s ambassador to the US, Hamas has fired 8,000 rockets since the Israel Defense Forces withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Aside from the occasional one fired at a police station or military post, virtually all have been fired randomly at civilians. In addition to being acts of war, each is also a war crime.

?The media has failed to note that unlike the West Bank, Gaza is NOT occupied. It is free of all Israeli military presence. The media also failed to mention that Hamas is not just a terror group. Hamas is the democratically elected government of Gaza ? one of the first ones in the entire Arab world.

?So Hamas is the government which the civilians in Gaza ? with rocket bases behind and under their homes and their children?s schools ? chose overwhelmingly to govern them, and to fire 8,000 rockets at Israel on their behalf. This is the choice they made ? AFTER Israeli forces withdrew from Gaza.

?So much for the notion that the Israeli occupation is the root of instability in the *region.?
 

fanaskin

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the doublespeak is strong with that article

when palestinians fire rockets that sometimes kill a handful of people it's terrorism against civilians, which ok if you want to say that, but when israelis kill hundreds-thousand+ of palestinian civilians and deliberately target schools, churches, hospitals and media stations it's defense.

they literally just have a weaker claim to be there than the palestinians do, which gives a side the right to say they are defending themselves or are the aggressors.



Also do you support a 2 state solution wombat? literally what are you gonna do with these people? they can't be apart of israel and they can't have their own state, what do people act like when they think they have no hope or future?
 

Jais

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Were there missile launch sites in/around those schools, churches, hospitals and media stations?
 

Abefroman

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Amod I humbly request fanaskins name be changed to - "Last edited by fanaskin". Thank you.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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Also do you support a 2 state solution wombat? literally what are you gonna do with these people?
There's a big difference between "want" and "can't". I'd like a two state solution, Israelis want a two state solution, but there can't be a two state solution until the Palestinians demonstrate that not only are they capable of governing themselves responsibly, but that they'd actually abide by any form of peace agreement. Throw in their utter inability to reign in militant extremism, and the fact that the West Bank would immediately become a launch pad for Syrian imported rockets, and they "can't" have their own state now. The decision to withdraw from Gaza was probably the dumbest move Israel has made in recent years in terms of it's own security-- they would have to have fucking Down's to do the same with the West Bank, except the result would be even worse because it borders the rest of the middle east.

Considering precedence in Gaza and the rest of the middle east, can you deny the fact that if Israel withdrew from the West Bank, rockets would start raining down the next day?

they can't be apart of israel and they can't have their own state, what do people act like when they think they have no hope or future?
Tell me, were you such a great advocate of the Palestinian people when they had zero hope or future when they were under the crushing boot of Jordanian rule? If you define "hope and future" purely by having your own country, then they haven't had "hope or future" for countless generations, yet suddenly it's Israel's fault? In any case, if I was a Palestinian, I would realize that firing crappy rockets and kidnapping kids against an obviously superior armed force would be very much counterproductive to my "hope and future". After I've poked the giant Grizzly for the 1000th time with my sharpened stick to little avail, only to be met with a bear claw to the face each time, I'd probably realize that was not helping my "hope and future". I would definitely realize that firing rockets at a nuclear plant within fallout distance of where I live is definitely against my "hope and future", LMAO. Maybe using methods of peace against a superior force might be effective? Nah, that's never worked before right?..

If I was a Palestinian in Gaza, I elected for a future whose mandate calls for the destruction of Israel. I guess that's my "Hope and Future", and I guess I probably should have thought about the possibility of reprisal when I called for the elimination of another country by force. Any lack of hope is squarely on my head. If I lived in the West Bank, I'd recognize the reality that if we don't fire crappy rockets at Israel and elect a terrorist government, we get peace and an improving economy, and derive hope from that and start demonstrating that we can effectively manage the government and stop radical groups from importing bombs. If the West Bank can get to a point where it won't be another Gaza situation, there will be a two state solution. However, considering the current state of radical Islam, I just don't see that as happening anytime soon.

And Fanaskin, please stop with the BS. You know full well the Pallies intentionally fire weapons from mosques/schools and the Israelis do their best to avoid firing on them. There are a gazillion videos on Youtube that evidence both. Fuck, that video I linked earlier where the Hama spokesperson calls on citizens to act as human shields? He specifically states that it is an effective tactic because the Israelis avoid firing on civilians.
 

iannis

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A very special idealistic sort of idiot. You go to Gaza because so few people are willing to. Or else you're a sympathetic partisan which is still ok as long as you don't pick up a weapon.

I mean blessed are the peacemakers man. I can see it. But it IS a special breed of idealistic idiocy. It's not a convicition that will, or should, shield you from bodily harm. But if that's your conviction then working in Gaza is the courage of it.