The Zionists are whining thread

No shit? Last I looked Israel is an ally of the US and Palestine is not.

You mean Israel is a leech upon the American taxpayer. Yeah, I agree with that.

fanaskin_sl said:

there's no formal treaty of alliance with israel far as I know and we do provide money to palestine.

Click to expand...

You are dense if you don't think the US considers Israel more of an ally than Palaestine. We normally don't provide the weaponry we do to Israel to countries/entities that are not strong allies, treaty or not.

Every time I see this thread I keep hoping it'll change to "The Zionists are whining thread" but alas, it never happens =/

Pretty much what Tuco said.

I think the situation as it is untenable. Its just an endless cycle of brutality which will further spiral Israel down. They need to figure a way out. Neither party is going anywhere, but to keep Gaza in a state of pretty much being a giant minimum security prison is retarded. Israel isnt capable of or willing to go to the measures it would take to completely suppress the people in Gaza. Think about what a country like China or North Korea would do in this situation. That isn't an option for Israel.

There is only one choice, Israel has to open it up and help provide opportunity and freedom for the people in Gaza. These people need to be running businesses and going to work. Ill bet 95% of Hamas are guys who couldn't find any other job or opportunity.

Want a start? How about creating the University of Palestine and a total overhaul of the educational system there. Build and fund a world class institution of higher learning for the people of Gaza and the West Bank, where they live. Not from Israel, but a joint project from nations from all over the world. This doesn't solve any problem overnight, but maybe a generation or two from now. Short term you create jobs and get kids learning something other than how to make a suicide vest.

Lleauaric_sl said:

Pretty much what Tuco said.

I think the situation as it is untenable. Its just an endless cycle of brutality which will further spiral Israel down. They need to figure a way out. Neither party is going anywhere, but to keep Gaza in a state of pretty much being a giant minimum security prison is retarded. Israel isnt capable of or willing to go to the measures it would take to completely suppress the people in Gaza. Think about what a country like China or North Korea would do in this situation. That isn't an option for Israel.

There is only one choice, Israel has to open it up and help provide opportunity and freedom for the people in Gaza. These people need to be running businesses and going to work. Ill bet 95% of Hamas are guys who couldn't find any other job or opportunity.

Want a start? How about creating the University of Palestine and a total overhaul of the educational system there. Build and fund a world class institution of higher learning for the people of Gaza and the West Bank, where they live. Not from Israel, but a joint project from nations from all over the world. This doesn't solve any problem overnight, but maybe a generation or two from now. Short term you create jobs and get kids learning something other than how to make a suicide vest.

Click to expand...

I agree however I'm afraid your solution has already been tried to a certain extent. Why do you think the socio-economic conditions in the West Bank are so much better than Gaza? Gaza wasn't "singled" out by Israel for indiscriminate reasons, its conditions are worse off vs the West Bank because Hamas came into power and started firing rockets and announcing their intent to exterminate Israel over TV and radio. When Israel pulled out of Gaza, including all settlers, they left behind 15 million worth of greenhouse infrastructure that the Gazans immediately destroyed rather than use for their own benefit. Then, when Israel lifted blockade restrictions in 2010, the cement allowed through was used to build two billion worth of tunnels into Israeli territory. In the eyes of an Israeli, every symbolic olive branch of "loosening the shackles" has been met with treachery. The IDF has a field hospital setup right at the border for injured Gazan civilians, yet it remain almost empty because many civilians fear Hamas retribution. The problem has, and still is, that in light of justifiable mistrust on the Israeli side, Gaza isn't willing to take things "step by step"-- they want it all now, such as a complete removal of the blockade. Who in their right mind would authorize a complete removal of the blockade, when the existing one was obviously insufficient in stopping 6000 rockets from being built/imported as well as 30+ multi-mile long tunnels dug into Israeli territory?

Gaza's poor economic situation can certainly be partially attributed to Israeli blockade, but a huge amount of money that could have been used to improve society has been diverted by their own corrupt government. With over one thousand Hamas millionaires in Gaza, and a leader that has a net worth that makes Obamas bank account look like a children's piggy bank, one has to wonder what billions in diverted funds could have accomplished. That's pretty good government pay for an open air slum.

Hamas is a fat, blood filled tick sucking on the lifeblood of its society. Formal (non religious) education and a happy healthy society is a framework that works against its own goals. Education, freedom of expression/speech, gender equality, and increased per-capita income all work towards eradicating radical Islam, not helping it. Keeping the population poor and desperate while they live like kings ensures fresh conscripts to their cause. And BTW, they do already have Universities. In fact, Israel shelled Islamic University just the other day because Hamas uses the laboratories for rocket development.

There will be no solution as long as Hamas is in power. Your goals of education would be perverted, and funds diverted. Hamas doesn't want children to eventually get a job, they want more shahid's to martyr themselves. The question is how to get rid of Hamas, so the things you propose DO become a possibility.

Really, the only way I see this being done in some manner that doesn't involve mass civilian casualties would be for Israel/Egypt to setup temporary refugee camps in their respective areas for Gazan civilians, ask everyone to evacuate, then go in and disassemble Hamas. Let some peacekeeping force monitor rebuilding/activities in Gaza, and let either Abbas take power or call elections that include only moderate political (not militant) parties. Then establish a slow removal of any blockades/restrictions based upon milestones of peace and calm being met. Really the only problem I see with this would be Egypts/Israelis unwillingness to do harbor so many potentially hostile civilians, the difficult logistics involved with supporting almost two million people in temporary camps, and of course who would do the "monitoring and peacekeeping". The UN has proved they're worthless in the past, is now comprised of 54 muslim nations who are clearly biased against Israel, and one can make a legitimate argument that UNRWA is practically complicit with Hamas.

There's no road forward that isn't paved with tragedy as long as Hamas holds power.

OneofOne_sl said:

Every time I see this thread I keep hoping it'll change to "The Zionists are whining thread" but alas, it never happens =/

Click to expand...

I keep hoping it will change to "The Zionist have won" or one side or the other really, get it over with and wipe one side or the other off the map.

I thought this was mildly amusing.

An Israeli Sense of Humor at United Nations set the record straight.

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile.

A representative from Israel began:
'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses:
When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought,
"What a good opportunity to have a bath!"

Moses removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished.
A Palestinian had stolen them!

The Palestinian representative at the UN jumped up furiously and
shouted, "What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there then."

The Israeli representative smiled and said,
"And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech."

Does anybody who knows anything about military weaponry, as well as their destructive patterns, to either lend credence or dismiss this guy's analysis? I know very little about the specifics of modern military gear and their exact capabilities.

Pallywood bombs - Thomas Wictor

Hamas targeted the UN school at Jabalia - Thomas Wictor

fanaskin_sl said:

I saw small boys baited and killed by Israeli soldiers in the Gaza refugee camp of Khan Younis. The soldiers swore at the boys in Arabic over the loudspeakers of their armored jeep. The boys, about 10 years old, then threw stones at an Israeli vehicle and the soldiers opened fire, killing some, wounding others. I was present more than once as Israeli troops drew out and shot Palestinian children in this way. Such incidents, in the Israeli lexicon, become children caught in crossfire.

Click to expand...

My brother in law is Palestinian and used to go back quite regularly in the 90's and early 2000's to visit family in the west bank. He's witnessed this exact thing happen, though it was far worse than Israel just baiting and shooting. Israel is the only country in the world that has an open market for organs. So my brother in law is visiting family and they used to play soccer in the streets between the buildings and an IDF patrol rolled up and grabbed one of the kids because he thought he had thrown rocks at him earlier that day and starts roughing him up (ie Beating the crap out of a 10 year old). The other kids start throwing rocks at the soliders to stop and the IDF soliders decide to open fire on the kids. They end up killing a kid by shooting him in the side of the head.. the IDF soldiers take the body and return it five days later with every major organ worth anything removed from the child, even his eyes. It was common up until about a decade ago for the bodies of people killed by the IDF to be completely stripped of organs which would be sold off.

The west bank at one point had a dusk curfew, and anyone caught out during this time could be arrested, or if they ran it would be common for IDF soliders to open fire. The people who keep arguing that it isn't as bad as nazi germany concentration camps because the death tolls aren't as high grossly underestimate what it's like to live there. It's actually disgusting that so many people here are comfortable with millions of people being trapped in camps, collectively punished,being arrested on a whim, and having their livelihoods (farms,homes,businesses) stolen or bulldozed without even a chance to clear our your possessions. You can argue that because they resist Israel it's their own fault, but Israel has created a situation that is ripe for perpetuating the problem. Somebody who has something to live for isn't about to run into Israel and blow themselves up, but the longer this conflict continues there are just going to be more and more people who feel hopeless and want to strike back against the Israel.. the people who have taken everything from them.

Also if you told me that Frenzied Wombat was one of those paid Israeli trolls I wouldn't be surprised. The guy follows the Israeli PR guide to a T, even down to how to handle the talking points and purposefully goes out of his way to paint the entire Palestinian as being culpable for what Israel is doing. In his eyes there is no such thing as innocent person in Palestine, all of them equally deserve to die for the actions of people outside their control.

Tripamang_sl said:

My brother in law is Palestinian and used to go back quite regularly in the 90's and early 2000's to visit family in the west bank. He's witnessed this exact thing happen, though it was far worse than Israel just baiting and shooting. Israel is the only country in the world that has an open market for organs. So my brother in law is visiting family and they used to play soccer in the streets between the buildings and an IDF patrol rolled up and grabbed one of the kids because he thought he had thrown rocks at him earlier that day and starts roughing him up (ie Beating the crap out of a 10 year old). The other kids start throwing rocks at the soliders to stop and the IDF soliders decide to open fire on the kids. They end up killing a kid by shooting him in the side of the head.. the IDF soldiers take the body and return it five days later with every major organ worth anything removed from the child, even his eyes. It was common up until about a decade ago for the bodies of people killed by the IDF to be completely stripped of organs which would be sold off.

Click to expand...

Israel is major hub for illegal organ trafficking and human trafficking in general. They busted a bunch of rabbi's involved in it a couple years back.

Tripamang_sl said:

My brother in law is Palestinian and used to go back quite regularly in the 90's and early 2000's to visit family in the west bank. He's witnessed this exact thing happen, though it was far worse than Israel just baiting and shooting. Israel is the only country in the world that has an open market for organs. l.

Click to expand...

What happens when war becomes so profitable?

Araysar_sl said:

Tell us about the IDF organ harvesters, Wombat.

Does your Zionist propaganda handbook cover that chapter?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...765992,00.html

Click to expand...

Right, the corneas/bones/kidneys that were also taken from dead IDF soldiers and Jewish civilians, it wasn't specifically targeted at Palestinians, and there's no evidence beyond allegations that anybody was murdered for their organs. yes, it The practice was banned and laws implemented to prevent it from happening under illicit circumstances. Meanwhile, human trafficking and organ harvesting is just business as usual for Hamas and African Jihadi groups.Human trafficking in the Sinai: to fight it we need to know it

Dude, you're not interested in debating history, cause and effect, or any talking point really--everything's a pithy one-liner to you. Every fact or salient point is just wrapped up into a tidy package of "Zionist propaganda" as you use post idiotic pics to try and compare Israel to Nazi Germany, and paint Gaza as the Warsaw Ghetto, without actually looking at any facts, like those Lithose pointed out. I may paint Hamas and its supporters to be evil, but I still recognize the moderate Pallies as victims in this whole scenario. I simply blame Hamas far more than I do Israel. You? You and Fanaskin seem to want to paint all of Israeli society as murderous Nazis.. I know you're smarter than that, but if you really believe it I'd encourage you to take a trip to Israel and the West Bank and form a real opinion.