The Zionists are whining thread

My question is whether the civilian population actually supports Hamas and their goals or is it more of a population ruled by threat/intimidation and they just cower away letting hamas control the government. Hard to know, especially considering they voted them in. If they do support, I don't see shit ever ending given hamas's goals(getting land back and removing/not recognizing "jewish" religion: from their own charter).

Hamas is very popular. Acting like the civilian population is being held hostage by Hamas and all they want is peace is just wrong.

It's like here. Except worse and more pronounced and the stakes are quite a bit higher.

Is the Tea Party stranglehold on the House indicative of the will of United States citizenry?

Well... yes and no.

Where as we have institutions and traditions to act as a counterbalance to that they don't. What institutions they might have to serve as a vector for moderation are co-opted. Where we get gridlock they get something quite a bit worse.

And yes, if we're being honest, sometimes Israeli policy is aimed at squelching even those alternative outlets because even if they promote a more moderate agenda it is still an unacceptable one.

Well, when the "moderate" Palestinian position still calls for a one-state solution and the defacto result of the destruction of Israel (right of return), yeah.

It's hard to read Araysar, it's like reading WWII propaganda. Thankfully I take it as such and just chuckle. Though there are people here like that from both sides.

If only our country could remove its dependency on middle east oil and ignore the whole region.

They all pay lip service to peace. I just happen to side with the people who wouldn't cut my head off.

Araysar_sl said:

It's amusing - I provide a link to the video of the current Israeli PM openly stating that he has no interest in peace and that he scuttled Oslo Accords on purpose to marginalize Palestinians and expand settlements.

But apparently this is hard to understand, like WW II propaganda!

Israelis pay lip service to peace, but in reality they think they gain nothing from letting Pallies out of the walled off Birkenau they have them trapped in. They love the current status quo. They trade a couple dead every year to keep 2 million people confined in a mass of rubble the size of Brooklyn and to them that a perfectly good deal.

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It's amusing that you thought I was pointing out one post. One just has to look at your post history(outside the nfl thread).

Cinge_sl said:

My question is whether the civilian population actually supports Hamas and their goals or is it more of a population ruled by threat/intimidation and they just cower away letting hamas control the government. Hard to know, especially considering they voted them in. If they do support, I don't see shit ever ending given hamas's goals(getting land back and removing/not recognizing "jewish" religion: from their own charter).

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Hamas provides the police, hospitals, funding for schools, food for the poor and build the supply tunnels for materials that Israel won't allow in. They are for all intents and purposes the government there, which makes them extremely difficult to dislodge. They're willing to fight Israel even when the odds are stacked against them, and actively work to rebuild after Israel has left, using their tunnels to bring in building materials. All of it makes them popular with the people and leaves people with really no other choice to vote for, who is going to do what Hamas is doing for them?

Tripamang_sl said:

Hamas provides the police, hospitals, funding for schools, food for the poor and build the supply tunnels for materials that Israel won't allow in. They are for all intents and purposes the government there, which makes them extremely difficult to dislodge. They're willing to fight Israel even when the odds are stacked against them, and actively work to rebuild after Israel has left, using their tunnels to bring in building materials. All of it makes them popular with the people and leaves people with really no other choice to vote for, who is going to do what Hamas is doing for them?

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You have a source for this? I hear a lot of UN schools and hospitals(where they hide weapons) and all you hear about tunnels is weapon trafficking and infiltration tunnels. If so, it's a smart move, you want the support of the public, while keeping the rest hidden.

It's such a bad situation and almost all of it stems from religious beliefs. Both groups denounce each other and hate each other and both want the other as far from them as possible or removed. Bad thing is , even if they got rid of Israel, they would then turn on each other with all the different "Tribes" and groups within the overall group.

Tripamang_sl said:

Hamas provides the police, hospitals, funding for schools, food for the poor and build the supply tunnels for materials that Israel won't allow in. They are for all intents and purposes the government there, which makes them extremely difficult to dislodge. They're willing to fight Israel even when the odds are stacked against them, and actively work to rebuild after Israel has left, using their tunnels to bring in building materials. All of it makes them popular with the people and leaves people with really no other choice to vote for, who is going to do what Hamas is doing for them?

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A government that doesn't embezzle billions of dollars from its impoverished population would be a great start. Bomb shelters for their citizenry rather than their militia might be good too. Not using your populace as bullet proof vests is probably another good one. Not working your children to death in the construction of a militant tunnel network would be a plus. A government whose charter doesn't call for the explicit and total extermination of your enemy, with constant reinforcement/reminder of that exact rhetoric piped over public TV each night. Those *might* all be things the Palestinians should look for in a government, at least if they want a peaceful existence.

"Hospitals and schools" is what every government provides, terrorist or otherwise. It's like saying "why would the citizens of Syria vote for someone else when Assad provides schools and hospitals".

Hamas has achieved nothing for its people but suffering while making themselves rich in the process. Even the moderate Arabs look at Hamas in disgust now.

I highly doubt that there will be any further elections in Gaza without some sort of armed uprising or forceful intervention. Hamas is in power and they're not going to let go of their cash cow so easily.

Cinge_sl said:

You have a source for this? I hear a lot of UN schools and hospitals(where they hide weapons) and all you hear about tunnels is weapon trafficking and infiltration tunnels. If so, it's a smart move, you want the support of the public, while keeping the rest hidden.

It's such a bad situation and almost all of it stems from religious beliefs. Both groups denounce each other and hate each other and both want the other as far from them as possible or removed. Bad thing is , even if they got rid of Israel, they would then turn on each other with all the different "Tribes" and groups within the overall group.

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My brother in law was the one who told me, but the Hamas wikipedia page backs it up:Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The tunnels are primarily used for smuggling goods for profit, and a lot of people have been made rich off it. When the Egyptian border opened some of the people who ran them were giving Al Jazeera tours of their operations as they figured they were no longer necessary (They are closed again). Israel puts hard limits on how much material of a specific type is allowed to enter the territory, which means anything you could bring above the limit would fetch quite a premium. I can't find the original article where they had tours etc but this one is recent and fairly interesting:The Gaza tunnels - Witness - Al Jazeera English

Tripamang_sl said:

My brother in law was the one who told me, but the Hamas wikipedia page backs it up:Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The tunnels are primarily used for smuggling goods for profit, and a lot of people have been made rich off it. When the Egyptian border opened some of the people who ran them were giving Al Jazeera tours of their operations as they figured they were no longer necessary (They are closed again). Israel puts hard limits on how much material of a specific type is allowed to enter the territory, which means anything you could bring above the limit would fetch quite a premium. I can't find the original article where they had tours etc but this one is recent and fairly interesting:The Gaza tunnels - Witness - Al Jazeera English

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Unfortunately in the world we live in, who knows what the tunnels are "primarily" being used for. Not saying they are not used for goods, but I would bet they are also used to get in weapons and such. Always made me curious how they get their rockets into the that tiny little piece of land, since those rockets are not exactly rpg size.

Sounds like economic warfare. And was much as people want to deny it, the whole region has been in a state of "conflict or war" for decades, if not centuries. Not sure what you do, you obviously do not want weapons and other such items getting in if you just open travel, but they get in anyway. Will that number increase without restrictions/control? Who knows. The whole thing is a mess and there is no clear "solution". You have people on one side who want land back they lost in a war and to remove certain religious people from the area and the other side takes that and turns it into a reason for warfare. Who's right and who's wrong? Imo both are right and both are wrong.

I mean how many in the US for example, would just do nothing if say canada(ignore size) was run by and filled with a group of people who's goal was to take US land and remove the people from the area? Hell any country, with the capability,will do something. It would be like if say the Native Americans all fled to canada when the region was flooded with immigrants from the rest of the world and kicked out, lost a war and they wanted it all back and us gone, by force. That kind of situation but with a lot more history in the area for both sides with origins going centuries back and fighting over that area for just a long.

Cinge_sl said:

Unfortunately in the world we live in, who knows what the tunnels are "primarily" being used for. Not saying they are not used for goods, but I would bet they are also used to get in weapons and such. Always made me curious how they get their rockets into the that tiny little piece of land, since those rockets are not exactly rpg size.

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There are tunnels that run into Israel that are probably used for staging attacks against Israel but the vast majority of them run to Egypt. Most of rockets they fire off are pretty basic (Qassam rocket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and can be constructed with run of the mill materials. The tunnels are used to smuggle cars (in four pieces) so there must be some big enough to get through disassembled missiles. I tried to find some details on what percentage of the Gaza economy is reliant on the tunnels, but sadly I couldn't find anything definite. I did find this article on wikipedia on what they block/allow in, and it's quite the readBlockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaIt honestly doesn't sound like they can build anything without the tunnels.

I'm confused, does Egypt not like them either? I would think they would be supplying them through their border.

Edit: Nvm guess not, from that blockade page : " ....while Egypt either pumps poisonous gases and water or detonates explosives to destroy the tunnels....[136] Egypt is constructing an underground steel barrier to prevent circumvention of the blockade through tunnels."

Would think another Arab nation would be all for trying to go against Israel(especially considering their fights with Israel previously).

Cinge_sl said:

Would think another Arab nation would be all for trying to go against Israel(especially considering their fights with Israel previously).

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Arabs tend to hate each other as much or more than they hate Jews.