The Zionists are whining thread

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khalid

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Your explanation that it was the fault of a few greedy jews is a gross distortion, one used by nazi apologists, which I assume you are not. Since I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, my guess is you are just very misinformed. If you want to simply focus on the history if it in relation to WWII and how it came about, I suggest...

Hitler's Willing Executioners
 

Jais

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But its pretty much a given that a major reason Israel gets away with a lot of the shit they pull is because of Holocaust guilt.
Has anyone here on the "pro Israel" side even brought up the Holocaust? Like we owe them a solid? If it's the trump card you think it is, I find it odd that none of "us" have played it, or at least none that I've seen.
 

Abefroman

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The reason that Israel gets away with stuff is because nobody gives a flying fuck about Palestinians. Not even the fucking Arabs want them. Every now and then people muster up as much fake outrage as then can over Israel and then it goes quiet agin. Meanwhile you have all these other human rights violations going on in the world and nobody says a peep.
 

Abefroman

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Has anyone here on the "pro Israel" side even brought up the Holocaust? Like we owe them a solid? If it's the trump card you think it is, I find it odd that none of "us" have played it, or at least none that I've seen.
I like to think of myself as more anti-muslim then pro Israel. I'm not going to bullshit and pretend one side is completly in the right like some people who will only point out what Israel does. Fuck all religions as far as I'm concernced. Jews are the lesser of two evils.
 

Jais

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And just so we are clear, I (as a German) have nothing against Jewish people.

and engaged in an information media war of manipulation to lobby our government to their designs.

the news just whitewashes everything Israel does.

...a people who milk Holocaust guilt
And just so we are clear, I (as a Southron) have nothing against Black people.

They just seem to not enjoy gainful employment

Take little part in raising their children.

And have a propensity to not follow the law.
 

Gavinmad

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And just so we are clear, I (as a Southron) have nothing against Black people.

They just seem to not enjoy gainful employment

Take little part in raising their children.

And have a propensity to not follow the law.
So he posted a bunch of things true about Zionists, you posted a bunch of things true about Blacks. What's your point?
 

Frenzied Wombat

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Israel doesn't "get away" with anything today because of Holocaust guilt, they "get away" with things because they're the only democracy in the mid-east, and they happen to develop A LOT of technology-- computer tech, military gear, medicines, hydroponics, energy management. The fact that they're able to maintain the same level of per-capita productivity concerning the circumstances is nothing short of amazing. Any country that would "embargo" them would be hurting themselves more than Israel.

As for anti-Semitism, being anti-Israel doesn't make you an anti-Semite. Being otherwise coherently intelligent on these boards, demonstrating a clear understanding of radical islam and the middle-eastern phenomenon, yet treating Israel like the Theo-fascist state and Hamas as the "freedom fighters" does though imho.

As Abrofman says, ultimately if Israel "wins" they won't be coming to cut-off our heads. You'll have a country you can hate for a number of personal reasons, but violence against neighboring countries and a Jew holy war across the mid-east just isn't going to happen. If Hamas wins you basically have every Jew exterminated, sharia law implemented, human rights TRULY and consistently violated, a definitive holy war of some type, and an end game that would include your blood (if they had a choice). So, from a purely pragmatic or Atheist standpoint, I see it hard to justify solidarity with a society that suppresses women, executes gays, and would kill me if they had the chance. Supporting a side that embodies the aforementioned facts, clearly to your own detriment, then using huge hyperbole in your argument, is what makes one look like an anti-Semite.
 
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Not sure if this has been linked, but for a 6 minute video is is pretty informative (assuming is all correct).

"The Middle East conflict is framed as one of the most complex problems in the world. But, in reality, it's very simple. Israelis want to live in peace and are willing to accept a neighboring Palestinian state. And most Palestinians do not want Israel to exist. As Dennis Prager explains, this is really all you need to know. In 5 minutes, understand how Israel was founded, and how, since that auspicious day in 1948, its neighbors have tried to destroy it, again and again. "
 

Loser Araysar

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Not sure if this has been linked, but for a 6 minute video is is pretty informative (assuming is all correct).



Dennis Prager is an American religious nut (think rapture shit) and his claim that Israel wants to live in peace is proven false by the recorded words of Benjamin Netanyahu

This video is garbage propaganda.
 

OneofOne

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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Irony = the native jews didn't want the huge surge of European/American jews moving to what is now Israel because they feared it would bring strife between them and the Muslims they'd been living peacefully with for hundreds of years.
 

khalid

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The "living peacefully with for hundreds of years" is pretty much bullshit. There were constant pogroms in that area against Jews. Even when that shit wasn't going on, they were consistently treated as second-class citizens and in many areas required to wear special insignia indicating they were a jew.
 

Borzak

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I like to think of myself as more anti-muslim then pro Israel. I'm not going to bullshit and pretend one side is completly in the right like some people who will only point out what Israel does. Fuck all religions as far as I'm concernced. Jews are the lesser of two evils.
Pretty much. I look and see if one side removed the other from the face of the map in which case would I personally be better off. Pretty simply. All this bullshit about unfair and crap is just that bullshit. You are either trying to win or losing.
 

Azrayne

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Israel doesn't "get away" with anything today because of Holocaust guilt, they "get away" with things because they're the only democracy in the mid-east, and they happen to develop A LOT of technology-- computer tech, military gear, medicines, hydroponics, energy management. The fact that they're able to maintain the same level of per-capita productivity concerning the circumstances is nothing short of amazing. Any country that would "embargo" them would be hurting themselves more than Israel.

As for anti-Semitism, being anti-Israel doesn't make you an anti-Semite. Being otherwise coherently intelligent on these boards, demonstrating a clear understanding of radical islam and the middle-eastern phenomenon, yet treating Israel like the Theo-fascist state and Hamas as the "freedom fighters" does though imho.

As Abrofman says, ultimately if Israel "wins" they won't be coming to cut-off our heads. You'll have a country you can hate for a number of personal reasons, but violence against neighboring countries and a Jew holy war across the mid-east just isn't going to happen. If Hamas wins you basically have every Jew exterminated, sharia law implemented, human rights TRULY and consistently violated, a definitive holy war of some type, and an end game that would include your blood (if they had a choice). So, from a purely pragmatic or Atheist standpoint, I see it hard to justify solidarity with a society that suppresses women, executes gays, and would kill me if they had the chance. Supporting a side that embodies the aforementioned facts, clearly to your own detriment, then using huge hyperbole in your argument, is what makes one look like an anti-Semite.
Hamas only exist as a reaction to Israel's treatment of Palestinians. If Israel wasn't blockading Palestinian land, annexing their territory and destroying their towns to build settlements, cutting off the flow of utilities and goods and basically destroying Gaza and the West Bank an inch at a time, then the Palestinians wouldn't be so angry. Anger makes people stupid, stupid enough to support a party which implements a policy of violence and terrorism which they're too weak to carry through on, invoking further acute violent retribution from Israel and allowing the media to portray the conflict as one between equals, instead of the occupation and conquest of one by the other. It's tragic, because if they'd stop firing their (practically useless) rockets, then Israel would have no excuse to take military action and to try gobble up more Palestinian territory and Gaza and the West Bank would be recognized for the massive-but-shrinking concentration camps that they are.

Of course, if that happened, then Israel would have no excuse to keep up the military action and blockades and would have to slow down their annexation of Palestine, so it wouldn't surprise me if, even if higher reason prevailed in Palestine and they ditched Hamas and stopped their futile efforts at fighting back so they could no longer be portrayed as a country of evil terrorists, Israel would step in and find a way to stir the violence up again anyway as an excuse to keep the blockades up, the rockets flying, the Palestinians dying, and the settlements building.

But at the end of the day, the responsibility for this conflict lies solely in Israel's hands. They're the ones with the power to end it, but they refuse to stop building settlements, and as long as they keep taking more Palestinian land, the Palestinians are going to be too enraged to act in their best interest (I'm not sure I'd be able to restrain myself if someone did to my country what is being done to theirs). It's like an adult bashing up a kid, punching him twice for every time the kid tries to punch back once in self defense. Maybe if the kid stops fighting back the adult will stop bashing him, but even if sheer instinct doesn't drive him to self defense, he has no way of knowing that curling up in a ball and waiting it out will result in the adult not bashing them to death.

Problem is that, at the end of the day, Israel doesn't want peace, they want the entirety of the land they believe was allotted to them by God, and this conflict is going to continue until Gaza and the West Bank are wholly part of Israel, or until the west threatens to cut off military and economic support (which is unlikely, unless something major goes down in the US).

FourMaps.jpg


This is the process that Israel wants to complete, and they know all they have to do is maintain the status quo and it will happen eventually, even if it takes another 50 years, or another 100. After all, in their minds they're God's anointed people, and it's the land God promised them, so they can justify anything done to take it and they can afford to be patient.
 

Tuco

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Hamas only exist as a reaction to Israel's treatment of Palestinians. If Israel wasn't blockading Palestinian land, annexing their territory and destroying their towns to build settlements, cutting off the flow of utilities and goods and basically destroying Gaza and the West Bank an inch at a time, then the Palestinians wouldn't be so angry. Anger makes people stupid, stupid enough to support a party which implements a policy of violence and terrorism which they're too weak to carry through on, invoking further acute violent retribution from Israel and allowing the media to portray the conflict as one between equals, instead of the occupation and conquest of one by the other. It's tragic, because if they'd stop firing their (practically useless) rockets, then Israel would have no excuse to take military action and to try gobble up more Palestinian territory and Gaza and the West Bank would be recognized for the massive-but-shrinking concentration camps that they are.
I noticed that you didn't say, "If Israel wasn't doing this, then Palestinians wouldn't be violent.", because that's a much more bold (and useful) argument.

However I think the core argument here is if Israel were to capitulate to Palestine anytime from here to the 1940s would there be a peaceful two-state Palestine. I'm really not an expert in what instigated the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, or the Six Day war, and whether Israel instigated that or reacted to it. However I don't think that moving forward a peaceful two state Palestine is an option. And there's only two paths to a one state option, the destruction of either side. The Palestinian people have lost one of the least fatal land wars in modern history and I think the most peaceful and permanent solution is to make them political refugees and dissolve the Gaza strip.
 

Ridas

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Your explanation that it was the fault of a few greedy jews is a gross distortion, one used by nazi apologists, which I assume you are not. Since I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, my guess is you are just very misinformed. If you want to simply focus on the history if it in relation to WWII and how it came about, I suggest...

Hitler's Willing Executioners
You probably dont want to recommend a book, that most historians think is wrong in its main premise.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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The Wall Street Journal is reporting 1875 palestinians dead in the last week or so. I'd generally say the palestinians cause whatever is coming to them but thats a lot of dead in a short time.
 

Faltigoth

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I noticed that you didn't say, "If Israel wasn't doing this, then Palestinians wouldn't be violent.", because that's a much more bold (and useful) argument.

However I think the core argument here is if Israel were to capitulate to Palestine anytime from here to the 1940s would there be a peaceful two-state Palestine. I'm really not an expert in what instigated the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, or the Six Day war, and whether Israel instigated that or reacted to it. However I don't think that moving forward a peaceful two state Palestine is an option. And there's only two paths to a one state option, the destruction of either side. The Palestinian people have lost one of the least fatal land wars in modern history and I think the most peaceful and permanent solution is to make them political refugees and dissolve the Gaza strip.
Simplified from the various wikis:

The Arab-Israeli war in 1948 was the result of 30 years of tension resulting from the way the land was divvied up at the end of WW1. It was a British colony for awhile, with Palestinians, Jews and Arabs generally having a low level civil war with a few full scale revolts. In 1947, the UN was going to divide things up into a Palestinian piece, a Jewish piece, and Jerusalem under UN control. This erupted into another civil war; on 14 May 1948 Israel declared itself an independent state. On 15 May, they were invaded by Palestinian, Egyptian, Syrian and Iraqi forces - by the time the smoke cleared almost a year later, Israel had won and claimed control of 60%ish of the Palestinian lands.

The 6 day war is a little different. After months of tension and Egyptian troop buildup, Israel launched an attack and took the Sinai from Egypt and the Golan Heights from Syria in 1967, as well as the West Bank and the rest of Jerusalem.

Then you had the Yom Kippur War in 1973. Syria and Egypt attacked to regain the territory lost in the 6 day war. They had big gains at first, then got their asses handed to them; Israel threw Syria back behind the Golan Heights, and crossed into Egypt. The war ended when Israeli forces encircled and were prepared to destroy the Egyptian 3rd Army outside of Cairo and WWIII almost broke out between the US and USSR.

After that, uneasy peace kind of settled in, Camp David accords, the Sinai was eventually given back, Golan Heights remain Israeli. Terror attacks in Israel, slow Israeli encroachment on Palestinian land, etc etc up to the present day.
 

Kaines

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I noticed that you didn't say, "If Israel wasn't doing this, then Palestinians wouldn't be violent.", because that's a much more bold (and useful) argument.

However I think the core argument here is if Israel were to capitulate to Palestine anytime from here to the 1940s would there be a peaceful two-state Palestine. I'm really not an expert in what instigated the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, or the Six Day war, and whether Israel instigated that or reacted to it. However I don't think that moving forward a peaceful two state Palestine is an option. And there's only two paths to a one state option, the destruction of either side. The Palestinian people have lost one of the least fatal land wars in modern history and I think the most peaceful and permanent solution is to make them political refugees and dissolve the Gaza strip.
In May 1967, Nasser(Egyptian President)receivedfalse reports from the Soviet Unionthat Israel was massing on the Syrian border. Nasser began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border. On 14 May 1967 General Mohammed Fawzi left for Syria for one day tour, verified that the Soviet report was false and reported that there were no Israeli armed forces near the Syrian border.[34][35] Still, Nasser declared full mobilisation in Egypt as of 14 May 1967, citing the joint defence agreement with Syria.[36] Nasser thenmisled the Egyptian people by perpetuating the falsehoodclaiming in an address on the anniversary of the Egyptian revolution, that the IDF was concentrating forces "on Syria's doorstep".[37] Nasser expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19) and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran.[38][39] Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war.[40][41] Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May 22-23. According to Shlaim & Louis, in the end of May 1967, Nasser claimed in a public speech to have been aware of the Straits of Tiran closure implications:"Taking over Sharm El Sheikh meant confrontation with Israel. It also means that we are ready to enter a general war with Israel. It was not a separate operation".[25][42]

On May 30, Jordan and Egypt signed a defense pact. The following day, at Jordan's invitation, the Iraqi army began deploying troops and armored units in Jordan.[43] They were later reinforced by an Egyptian contingent. On June 1, Israel formed a National Unity Government by widening its cabinet, and on June 4 the decision was made to go to war. The next morning, Israel launched Operation Focus, a large-scale surprise air strike that was the opening of the Six-Day War.
Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sound familiar? Lies by Russians. Lies accepted as truth by Muslim terrorist states and lies told to their people. Acts of terrorism against Israel. After many warnings and when they had enough, Israel finally defends itself against Muslim aggression. I'm surprised Putin isn't in Gaza right now trying to stir things up again.
 

Phazael

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Separate issue and Israel and the Soviets were actually pretty tight, behind the scenes. Israel snagged them some of our nuclear sub tech, in fact, among other things.