The Zionists are whining thread

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mkopec

mkopec

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You guys forget that we are now in the apex of the information age. With the furthering of the internet technology, and handing everyone in the first world and even some 3rd world thats 10 yrs old+ a smart phone, at our fingertips we have the worlds information by the balls anytime we want it. At no time in history was this more prevalent than now.
 
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Tuco_sl said:
To me, the printing press is like tinker toys that we as humans played with as toddlers, and the radio was an erector set we got later. Both of them build upon existing technology and their makers stand upon the shoulders of giants. But the stuff we're doing now outclasses them in so many important ways that to say we peaked then and are just producing derivative works is silly.
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I don't think you are taking the relative innovation it required to create these wonders. Just because something is faster and has more bells and whistles doesn't mean the thought process to design it was more impressive than the creativity used to produce a machine that had nothing like it on Earth before it was invented. Most of the tech we have today is simply improved versions of these original ideas. The printer is an improved version of the typewriter which is an improved version of the printing press. The printing press was the totally new idea. The others were just upgrades.

Anyway, I wanted to post this here as an example of what the "conservative media" is saying about Israel. It looks like Obama is supporting charging IDF soldiers with war crimes. We prosecute our own soldiers when they commit war crimes, it makes sense to hold our allies to the same standard right? Nope.
This is insanity. President Obama is actually in support of charging one of our greatest allies with war crimes, despite the fact that they didn?t start the conflict, but were defending themselves against terrorists.
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OK? I guess by this logic if you are attacked first, you too can bomb schools and hospitals. Anyway, the article was linked from my FB friend and is worth a read to understand the insane pro-Israel propaganda currently circulating through the American right.

REPORT: Obama Supports Charging Israel With "War Crimes"
 
mkopec

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The typewriter was not an "improved version of the printing press" Its a standalone invention which revolutionized writing in business, gov, and personal as a whole since people can type 50x faster than write by hand and pen.
 
Tripamang

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The printing press was just a grape press with letters on the top instead of a flat metal surface. It was even used by the Romans as a way of "printing" patterns on clothing.. fuck you could even argue that the idea was there from the beginning it's just literacy was so rare it didn't make sense to actually produce books that way. Why have a device dedicated to making copies of documents that no one is interested in reading or even can read? I would say a general change in society to value education and knowledge made a much larger difference then the printing press itself. There were long periods in both the middle east and western society where anything outside of religious texts were considered blasphemy, fuck even the printing press had the church freaking out that people could now read the bible themselves and interpret in a way that didn't come from the Vatican. I really believe the increase in farming productivity led more people to be wealthy and par take in education, which created a demand that the printing press filled.
 
Phazael

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I get where Tuco is coming from, but I think he is equating knowledge with intelligence. We have more access to (and outright learned) knowledge than at any point in human history. That is undeniably true. But there is a decided absence in truly new concepts and innovations in recent decades, just tons of amazing refinements on the efficiency of existing ones. At some point, if we keep doing the shit we are, we are going to hit another tipping point like Europe did with the Dark Ages where we will HAVE to be inventive again, rather than derivative. I just hope we haven't fucked things up with religion, greed, and laziness too far to recover from it.

On topic, I think you absolutely do have war crimes investigations and (if evidence merits) trials. Maybe his Gitmo fever has made him forgotten this, but our country has this concept of due process, so an investigation does not imply guilt. And if Israel wants to keep itself on some high horse, it is in their best interest to have an impartial investigation clear them of wrongdoing in this case.
 
Frenzied Wombat

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Phazael_sl said:
On topic, I think you absolutely do have war crimes investigations and (if evidence merits) trials. Maybe his Gitmo fever has made him forgotten this, but our country has this concept of due process, so an investigation does not imply guilt. And if Israel wants to keep itself on some high horse, it is in their best interest to have animpartialinvestigation clear them of wrongdoing in this case.
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The problem is that the UN is extremely biased against Israel with 54 Muslim nations now members. The type of things being voiced at the UN is downright appalling, and they make no effort to even bother hiding their hypocrisy. Iran, despite hanging women for not apologizing after being raped, was just handed aseaton the UN's "Commission on the Status of Women". It's a fucking sham and would be a kangaroo court. Also , where's the investigation of Hamas the nihilistic death cult and their OBVIOUS war crimes?

Here's the dude that has been appointed as the head of the "war crimes" investigation. Biased much?

In rambling TV interview, UNs William Schabas scores own goal - YouTube
William Schabas: - YouTube
William Schabas, head of UN Gaza commission, dismisses anti-Israel charge - Politics - CBC News

Also, it is not a war crime to fire on civilian infrastructure that is housing armed combatants and/or is being used to launch attacks.
 
Phazael

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I don't think you are in an objective position to determine bias. But the UN is a shitshow, for certain. However, given that the USA can basically veto anything they don't like in the UN, I am pretty sure Obama can put his hand on the scales for Israel to keep his Zionist pals happy.

If those structures were indeed munitions dumps for Hamas, your assertion is correct. That is what the investigation should be determining. Simply having an investigation is not stating guilt. But sorry, you do not get to bomb schools and kill civilians without some sort of investigation to validate those as legitimate targets.
 
Frenzied Wombat

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Phazael_sl said:
I don't think you are in an objective position to determine bias. But the UN is a shitshow, for certain. However, given that the USA can basically veto anything they don't like in the UN, I am pretty sure Obama can put his hand on the scales for Israel to keep his Zionist pals happy.

If those structures were indeed munitions dumps for Hamas, your assertion is correct. That is what the investigation should be determining. Simply having an investigation is not stating guilt. But sorry, you do not get to bomb schools and kill civilians without some sort of investigation to validate those as legitimate targets.
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You're right, I'm not in an objective position and wouldn't consider myself a good person to sit on that court. Neither would you be. But whatever my/your personal opinion is on the conflict and the subject of war crimes, it doesn't cloud the fact that this Schabas guy is 100% biased. His videos already disclose an unarguable predisposed vision of Israel's guilt. You mentioned that Israel should receive an "impartial" investigation, and I was just pointing out in its current incarnation and judge, that is obviously an impossibility. I'm not saying that those schools/hospitals shouldn't be investigated, only that the investigation (in its current form) has obviously decided its verdict.
 
Phazael

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Well then here is the dilemma. You either let them do an investigation (something you believe to be a dog and pony show, but it will gather evidence for future analysis) and deal with the consequences of a faulty verdict later, or you bar the investigation which essentially is a silent admission of guilt on Israel's part. Personally, I would opt for the first one because then at least Israel is presenting the appearance of trying to cooperate and can denounce the investigation as Anti-Semite or whatever later. The second option is just basically going to alienate a lot of people who might be siding with you on this issue.
 
Frenzied Wombat

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Phazael_sl said:
Well then here is the dilemma. You either let them do an investigation (something you believe to be a dog and pony show, but it will gather evidence for future analysis) and deal with the consequences of a faulty verdict later, or you bar the investigation which essentially is a silent admission of guilt on Israel's part. Personally, I would opt for the first one because then at least Israel is presenting the appearance of trying to cooperate and can denounce the investigation as Anti-Semite or whatever later. The second option is just basically going to alienate a lot of people who might be siding with you on this issue.
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Or 3rd, you actually make a modicum of effort to get someone to lead the investigation that hasn't previously vocalized, on numerous occasions, his hate for Netenyahu and his desire to see him in the ICC docket.
 
Phazael

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Considering old Ben is on record saying he intentionally torpedoed the peace at various times in order to resume steamrolling Gaza, I think the guy has a valid reason for being pissed off at him. Netenyahu has essentially undermined all of the man's efforts at every turn. If this is a real issue they can just pressure Obama to request someone else to handle the investigation, but the fact of the matter is anyone who does not rule entirely in Israel's favor is just going to get smeared as an anti-Semite and anyone who completely exonerates them will draw cries of rigging the investigation from the Arab camp. Ideally, you want a guy who is known for being tough on Israel to go in and say "yes there were fucking rockets here" because then it will have credibility with both camps. But if we are being honest here, Israel just wants to obfuscate things so that they can keep on steamrolling Palestine while people argue over bullshit semantics like this. You know it. I know it. Pretty much everyone with a dog in this fight knows it. So we are just arguing ideal hypotheticals at this point, and not the likely reality.
 
Tuco

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Phazael_sl said:
I get where Tuco is coming from, but I think he is equating knowledge with intelligence. We have more access to (and outright learned) knowledge than at any point in human history. That is undeniably true. But there is a decided absence in truly new concepts and innovations in recent decades, just tons of amazing refinements on the efficiency of existing ones. At some point, if we keep doing the shit we are, we are going to hit another tipping point like Europe did with the Dark Ages where we will HAVE to be inventive again, rather than derivative. I just hope we haven't fucked things up with religion, greed, and laziness too far to recover from it.

On topic, I think you absolutely do have war crimes investigations and (if evidence merits) trials. Maybe his Gitmo fever has made him forgotten this, but our country has this concept of due process, so an investigation does not imply guilt. And if Israel wants to keep itself on some high horse, it is in their best interest to have an impartial investigation clear them of wrongdoing in this case.
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I'm more focusing on technological innovation than intelligence, rather than conflating either knowledge, intelligence or innovation. I do this for three reasons:
1. It's impossible to quantifiably compare intelligence between generations (especially generations separated by hundreds of years).
2. I find the idea that any reasonable IQ test wouldn't have better scores for this generation compared to the average person during the Renaissance, simply because of the increased level of knowledge we have today, and the higher percentage of people who have to actively write, do arithmetic, read, solve problems etc.
3. Maybe it's because I work in the research and science field, but I work with a lot of very intelligent people and I've stopped really caring how intelligent people are. I care what they produce with the intelligence and tools they have. If someone is of an average intelligence but they produce more than someone who has a high IQ then I have more respect for the better producer.

So yeah, there's millions of researchers today doing cool shit, and that trumps the hundreds or thousands of researchers that were actively doing cool shit in the Renaissance.
 
Frenzied Wombat

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Phazael_sl said:
Considering old Ben is on record saying he intentionally torpedoed the peace at various times in order to resume steamrolling Gaza, I think the guy has a valid reason for being pissed off at him. Netenyahu has essentially undermined all of the man's efforts at every turn. If this is a real issue they can just pressure Obama to request someone else to handle the investigation, but the fact of the matter is anyone who does not rule entirely in Israel's favor is just going to get smeared as an anti-Semite and anyone who completely exonerates them will draw cries of rigging the investigation from the Arab camp. Ideally, you want a guy who is known for being tough on Israel to go in and say "yes there were fucking rockets here" because then it will have credibility with both camps. But if we are being honest here, Israel just wants to obfuscate things so that they can keep on steamrolling Palestine while people argue over bullshit semantics like this. You know it. I know it. Pretty much everyone with a dog in this fight knows it. So we are just arguing ideal hypotheticals at this point, and not the likely reality.
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Right, so you think that Schabas "has a valid reason to be pissed off at Netenyahu", yet still see him as a valid judge in determining his guilt? Your exact justification for why he dislikes Netenyahu is the exact reason why, under international law and the basics of due process, he should be precluded from being his judge.

Let me de-obfuscate and clarify: You said that Israel should get an "impartial investigation". Based on Schabas' comments, do you think he's impartial? Yes or No. Same with George Clooney's fianc?e Amal Alamuddin who turned down the offer to be on the same inquiry.
 
iannis

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Impartial is the key term. Also key is admitting that you will not find an impartial commission unless it is comprised entirely of illiterate Australian aborigines.

They've done some shit/ no doubt. A commission is not a tool of war, but it would be used as one. In arguing for it you are not even trying to pretend otherwise. Which is good. An impartial investigation, which is the only kind available, would not be in their interest.

So why should they submit to it. T hat is not justice. That is propaganda.
 
Phazael

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Refusing to submit to the findings of the investigation is a lot different than trying to stop one from ever happening in the first place. Israel has proven amazingly adept at deflecting, deconstructing, or outright ignoring these sorts of things. Not allowing ANY investigation is pretty much admitting they fucked up and makes one wonder what else they don't want anyone to find. Also, good luck finding anyone that Netenyahu hasn't pissed off that would be taken seriously to lead the investigation.
 
khalid

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Phazael_sl said:
Refusing to submit to the findings of the investigation is a lot different than trying to stop one from ever happening in the first place.
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Submitting to a biased investigation that will only be used as propaganda against them would be absurd.
 
iannis

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Exactly what you're doing right now. Finger wagging.

These things must serve peace. Otherwise they are only harmful.
 
Hoss

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It'd probably be cool if we let Israel just do their own internal investigation and everyone else stay out of their way. No one seems to mind when the DOJ and IRS do that.
 
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