The Zionists are whining thread

Tuco

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Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
Your choice of words is good, I'd like to bring emphasis to the word "retaliation". Whatever reprisal the Israelis conduct, is in retaliation for this act that intentionally targeted children. If there was no aggression, there would be no retaliation, and no hypothetical future dead palis. Bottom fucking line. Israel has show over and over again that if you make peace, and KEEP to it, they won't be the ones to fire a shot. Egypt and Jordan are living, breathing, historical examples of this.

If someone shoots a missile at your house desiring the death of your children, and takes out your kids playing in the yard, then your fire one back, only later to find out you also ended up blowing away some innocents that the terrorists were using for cover, whose hands is their blood on, and were your acts not justified?

This is the same tactic used in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Hide amongst civilians and force unwanted casualties that modern democracies can't stomach.

The muslim extremists intentionally target children. The US/Israel does not, but unfortunately the way they are forced to fight the extremists, civilian casualties are unavoidable.
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Sounds like bullshit reasoning used to make ones self okay with the ultimate deaths of children. When Palestine retaliates by kidnapping Israelis I assign them some blame. When Israel retaliates by bombing Palestine I assign them some blame. When Palestine retaliates by throwing some rockets over a wall and hitting Israel I assign them some blame. When Israel retaliates by building settlements on previously Palestinian land I assign them some blame.

This isn't a case where there is a true aggressor and a civil entity looking for peace. It's two entities occupying one region and being unkind to one another. One side is winning though.
 
Frenzied Wombat

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Tuco_sl said:
Sounds like bullshit reasoning used to make ones self okay with the ultimate deaths of children. When Palestine retaliates by kidnapping Israelis I assign them some blame. When Israel retaliates by bombing Palestine I assign them some blame. When Palestine retaliates by throwing some rockets over a wall and hitting Israel I assign them some blame. When Israel retaliates by building settlements on previously Palestinian land I assign them some blame.

This isn't a case where there is a true aggressor and a civil entity looking for peace. It's two entities occupying one region and being unkind to one another. One side is winning though.
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So context doesn't matter? Who initiated aggression doesn't matter? Historical precedents offered up as evidence doesn't matter? All that matters is kids are dead and in the context of war, it doesn't matter whether they're intentionally targeted or not? It doesn't matter that one side openly indoctrinates their children to murder/suicide as a way to achieve greatness, and when that fact is realized, it's the other side's fault that they're dead? Lol, really?

The reality is if the Palis wanted peace (rather than their charter calling for the destruction of Israel) they could have it. Just like Jordan. Just like Egypt.

I assume when you state "winning" you're referring to the Israelis? How do you figure when they ceded Gaza to the Palis five years ago (under the false promise of peace from the Palestinians, of course) and the Arab Israeli population is their fastest growing demographic? Unlike the rest of the Arab world, Arab (yes muslim!) Israelis get to vote and hold office, so what happens when the majority of voters in the "Jewish state" are Arabs?...
 
R

Robert Baratheon_sl

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Why is Israel the only country in the world that has to trip over its own dick to "proportionally" respond to attacks on its civilians? Giving your enemy some kind of fair fight on purpose is an absolutely insane military strategy and will get you laughed at by any person in uniform anywhere in the world. It's like the real world equivalent of "No Rush 20 minutes!". Fucking insane.

There is no place for Hamas in a peaceful Middle East. I'm not sure what else people need to see at this point.
 
Tuco

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Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
So context doesn't matter? Who initiated aggression doesn't matter? Historical precedents offered up as evidence doesn't matter? All that matters is kids are dead and in the context of war, it doesn't matter whether they're intentionally targeted or not? It doesn't matter that one side openly indoctrinates their children to murder/suicide as a way to achieve greatness, and when that fact is realized, it's the other side's fault that they're dead? Lol, really?

The reality is if the Palis wanted peace (rather than their charter calling for the destruction of Israel) they could have it. Just like Jordan. Just like Egypt.

I assume when you state "winning" you're referring to the Israelis? How do you figure when they ceded Gaza to the Palis five years ago (under the false promise of peace from the Palestinians, of course) and the Arab Israeli population is their fastest growing demographic? Unlike the rest of the Arab world, Arab Israelis get to vote and hold office, so what happens when the majority of voters in the "Jewish state" are Arabs?...
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Context matters, but the only context you're considering is the context of Palestinian aggression. I don't know why those dicks kidnapped the kids, but if I had to guess what they'd say they'd use the same biased reasoning you're peddling here. "The Israelis did this to us, so we retaliated.".
 
Frenzied Wombat

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Tuco_sl said:
Context matters, but the only context you're considering is the context of Palestinian aggression. I don't know why those dicks kidnapped the kids, but if I had to guess what they'd say they'd use the same biased reasoning you're peddling here. "The Israelis did this to us, so we retaliated.".
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A cycle of reprisals and retaliations is a fundamental characteristic of a factional war, and it doesn't suddenly make all parties equally guilty--even years later when you can't even remember who started what for why. Personally, the side that continually and intentionally targets children and civilians, openly incites its population to do so over radio/TV, has a charter calling for the death of their enemies, and indoctrinates their children to kill/hate is the one working harder to perpetuate the cycle of violence, don't you think?

There is no "white knight" in war. Even in something black and white as say WW II, there were still atrocities committed by the US/Brits. Nevertheless, I can still recognize which side wanted peace, and which side wanted war.

I'm curious, what do you think would happen in these two scenarios?

1) Israel removes all blockades and interference concerning the West Bank and Gaza under the agreement of non-aggression. The Palis get everything they want (well, some do, the rest want all of Israel). What happens?

2) The Palis stop firing rockets, building bombs, kidnapping Israelis, and basically start pulling an MLK style movement. What happens next?

Hint. The Palestinian government has little to no control over its people. Like the rest of the middle east, it's factional/tribal. Moderates, extremists, Shia, Sunni, Hamas, PLO.. Then you've got external influences like Iran/Syria/lebanon pulling the Pali strings, and they certainly do not want peace. Any agreement they make, just like their historical ones, can't be kept because they can't control their own factions or external influences. They can't even get their factional shit together for five minutes to fight their "common enemy". So, how do you make peace with that?
 
Tuco

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Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
A cycle of reprisals and retaliations is a fundamental characteristic of a factional war, and it doesn't suddenly make all parties equally guilty--even years later when you can't even remember who started what for why. Personally, the side that continually and intentionally targets children and civilians, openly incites its population to do so over radio/TV, has a charter calling for the death of their enemies, and indoctrinates their children to kill/hate is the one working harder to perpetuate the cycle of violence, don't you think?

There is no "white knight" in war. Even in something black and white as say WW II, there were still atrocities committed by the US/Brits. Nevertheless, I can still recognize which side wanted peace, and which side wanted war.
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I agree, that the actions of the Palestinians are generally more reprehensible than the Israelis. However they are also less effectual. To me kidnapping some hiking teenagers and killing them (Did they torture them?) is morally disgusting but causes less harm to a community than blowing up several buildings in a neighborhood with surgical strikes that injure and kill dozens of people. Even if those strikes successfully hit the perpetrators of the kidnappings.

Wombat_sl said:
I'm curious, what do you think would happen in these two scenarios?

1) Israel removes all blockades and interference concerning the West Bank and Gaza under the agreement of non-aggression. The Palis get everything they want (well, some do, the rest want all of Israel). What happens?

2) The Palis stop firing rockets, building bombs, kidnapping Israelis, and basically start pulling an MLK style movement. What happens next?
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1. The violent factions within the Palestinians will take advantage and attack Israel.
2. Israel will wait for a good opportunity to build more illegal settlements (basically what they are doing now, except they don't get the periodic casus belli of a rocket or kidnapping like they do now).

There really is no upside or easy path out of this. At a pragmatic level I think you and I are pretty close to being on the same page. I don't want to speak for you, but I think the best way out of this is a couple more generations of Israel diminishing the Palestinian people while slowly integrating the educated/wealthy/cooperative individuals. But we, as an ally of Israel, shouldn't feel happy or morally righteous because of that path being taken.
 
Chris

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Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
Maybe when the Palestinians stop kidnapping, murdering, and intentionally targeting children they won't have to worry about reprisal? Fucking additional crazy thought: If your opponent carries bigger guns than you, maybe don't fuck with their kids?

The Palis have this strategy down pat, and it works exceptionally well for people who have severe myopia (such as yourself) when it comes to facts and history. The Palis KNOW they're will be Israeli retribution, and they KNOW they will lose more than three lives in the process. They don't care. All they care about is that there be a few pali kids that get caught in the inevitable crossfire so people like yourself can label Israel as the heinous aggressor.

So, if it were your children that got kidnapped and mutilated, what would be the appropriate number for you, asshat?
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All Palestinians got together and did the kidnap right?

The Israelis SET ON FIRE the houses of the people suspected of doing the murders, this sounds crazy to me. Where is the rule of law? I don't give a shit about either side as neither can behave like human beings.
 
Gavinmad

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I like how the scumfuck Israelis try to distance themselves by saying 'oh it was the cops, not the military'.

Cause that makes everything ok!
 
Xequecal

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Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
So context doesn't matter? Who initiated aggression doesn't matter? Historical precedents offered up as evidence doesn't matter? All that matters is kids are dead and in the context of war, it doesn't matter whether they're intentionally targeted or not? It doesn't matter that one side openly indoctrinates their children to murder/suicide as a way to achieve greatness, and when that fact is realized, it's the other side's fault that they're dead? Lol, really?

The reality is if the Palis wanted peace (rather than their charter calling for the destruction of Israel) they could have it. Just like Jordan. Just like Egypt.

I assume when you state "winning" you're referring to the Israelis? How do you figure when they ceded Gaza to the Palis five years ago (under the false promise of peace from the Palestinians, of course) and the Arab Israeli population is their fastest growing demographic? Unlike the rest of the Arab world, Arab (yes muslim!) Israelis get to vote and hold office, so what happens when the majority of voters in the "Jewish state" are Arabs?...
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The Palestinians could have peace if they wanted it, yes. However, they would still be second-class citizens with no rights, no citizenship, and a livelihood totally dependent on the whims of the Israeli state. Remember, the Israeli Arabs that remained in Israel instead of leaving during the 1948 war were essentially slaves for almost 20 years. They could be arbitrarily detained, have their property seized, or even summarily executed without trial, any kind of judicial process, or any kind of compensation. Also remember that these were the Arabs that stuck around, the current Palestinian population also carries the stigma of being viewed as traitors that left Israel in 1948 with the expectation of moving right back in after the Arab nations had expelled the Jews.

Do you really think Israel would let them form their own state or grant them equal rights, even if they were to stop shooting off rockets and suicide bombing things? It's not very likely.
 
fanaskin

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Xequecal_sl said:
The Palestinians could have peace if they wanted it, yes. However, they would still be second-class citizens with no rights, no citizenship, and a livelihood totally dependent on the whims of the Israeli state.
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also no continuous territory they'd be in isolated clusters without roads connecting some parts
 
Cad

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The thing that cracks me up is this. The only thing preventing Israel from systematically killing every Palestinian on their land is modern ethics which mean you only attack those that attack you, you try not to target civilians, you destroy the fighters ability to fight not the whole country, etc - this type of doctrine is a 20th century invention. Prior to that, people engaged in total war and would gladly massacre whomever they needed to in order to win. Israel is a modern, educated country with Western ideals, so they subscribe to this theory culturally, in no small part because of the Holocaust. These ideals are the ONLY reason there aren't SS-style death squads roaming the West Bank and Gaza.

The only thing stopping the Palestinians from systematically killing all the Israelis, down to the last man, is ability. They lack the ability to do so. Otherwise they would.

And yet people come here and post that the Israelis are acting unethically, why don't they stop oppressing the Palestinians, etc.

Wake the fuck up, hippies. The Palestinians don't want your help. They don't want your compassion. They want to kill the Israelis. Period.
 
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