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Mahes

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
5,238
6,257
I have said this many times throught the recent years and will continue to wish for it. EQ the next generation if done right, I would of course play. However, just take the game EvE and apply the base idea/structure to a fantasy like setting. That is a game I would play for many many years. DAoC touched this idea just a little bit, but nothing was permantely destroyed and the PvP world was not near large enough. It would take a lot of work, but if the end result could be managed, it would easily be a game worth playing for a long time.
 

Vilgan_sl

shitlord
259
1
I have tried Eve several times and always get burnt out after a few weeks once I realize i'm going to be stuck doing the same 4 missions 1500 times to be able to buy my new ship (and they are boring as hell to me). I love the concept, players being able to run the world etc but it just doesn't keep me interested while i'm actually playing. As others have said, I have more fun reading about it and reading the stories about big events etc.
I really wish Eve would just remove missions entirely so people would stop doing them. Missions are the very worst form of PvE in any game I've played ever. They are incredibly repetitive and provide some of the worst isk income ever. With just a few days of training, I could hop into wormholes or 0.0 and make significantly more income than I would with a 2 year character running missions and enjoy myself a lot more. Eve isn't the cure all and even it got a bit boring, but it did provide years of fun and more true adrenaline highs than any other game I've touched by a significant margin.

As for the future, I don't see much that looks promising. Pathfinder Online has some potential, but it also has a decent chance of never seeing the light of day.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
i don't want to be wholly negative, but this is reality.

the quality of game design in this industry has taken an absolute shit-dive in the last decade and has totally fucked up any progression in gameplay we could've seen in this genre. the mmog industry has regressed, not progressed.

box sales or sub counts mean nothing. success is not indicative whatsoever of quality. if you want your mcmansion down on newport with your pool full of swedish supermodels in money hats, then you do what modern wow has done: cater to every single demographic that exists by dumbing-down gameplay, removing barriers, homogenizing any differences, and minimizing any effects of choices that you give players, restrictions and more restrictions. yup, you'll be a financial success and get the tiny timmys, sally soccer moms, and joe casual dads all signed up for your little casual mcmmo because these demographics are stupid and don't know any better, because they don't want to know any better. they don't want to think or face any mental challenges or hardship - they just want to push buttons and see sparkles for a few hours after work.

design for them and you'll get your money hats, but man up to it - man up to selling out and losing your and your company's integrity. and by selling out i mean no longer are you designing in terms of what makes for interesting gameplay itself - in terms of any vision of a game world you may have, but you inconsistently mash different systems together, badges, tokens, points, pvp, LFR, based on business metrics like marketing or usage data, exclusively designing mcdungeons and boxes of rooms and calling them raids - and it grows into a giant blob of incoherent and inconsistent designs driven solely by beancounters for the sole purpose of maximizing revenue streams and profit margins.

this isn't how you design ANYTHING, movies, music, or video games. you're not designingto an audienceanymore. you're designingto every audience. and this, removing all those euphemisms, is fucking selling out.

now, this seething mass of casual demographic ADHD sheep quits and resubs every few months because there's no more pokemon to catch, and they need their fix somewhere else, maybe farmville 7 or halo 10. so what do these absolutely retarded designers believe? they listen to the suits again. woe to us, no one wants to pay a sub anymore! 11.99 is just way too expensive the marketing dept says. so we'll make our game F2P and revenue-stream the fuck out of it by putting in cash shops, microtransactions, and pay auction houses.

now your integrity has gone past rock bottom, not only are you designing to every single monkey breathing, you're now directly impactingthe gameplay and social dynamic inside the game itselfby introducing item acquisition outside of it for use inside of it.

and these fucking idiot designers wonder why a sub model is outdated? it's their fucking fault.
 
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Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
6
Here's a little tip for everyone who thinks they know what WoW needs more than Blizzard does: Blizzard trackseverything. This means that when they frantically backpedal on the core design of an expansion (c.f. the complete 180 in difficulty curve design that happened after the trollroics and the frantic nerfing of Firelands/introduction of LFR), it usually means they've got all sorts of metrics on "PUG Heroics starts vs PUG Heroics completes", "Time played vs time idling" and the likeon top ofall of the "I am cancelling my subscription because of X" feedback and people shouting on messageboards.

So when they remove all the artificial difficulty gating, it's because theyknowthat's why people are quitting. See also: Ghostcrawler's uncharacteristically rapid admission that Golden Lotus dailies was a bad design they won't do in the future - they've almost certainly got data from a whole bunch of people who got to, say, honoured/revered and then went "Fuck this shit" and stopped repping.
 

Pancreas

Vyemm Raider
1,132
3,819
I would have been happy to save blizzard some time and tell them that rep grinds are fried shit served up on some ass crackers. The fact that they need to compile data to figure that one out, really shows where they are in terms of the design process... out to fucking lunch.

There was another time when heroics were decent challenges. Right when TBC came out. Some of them were grueling and hard and gave nothing in the way of a decent reward for the effort, but damn if they weren't fun to complete, just to say you did. I really don't think there was a mass exodus of players back then because heroics were too hard. They did tone them down not too long into the expansion if I remember though, so I am sure they were getting all kinds of whine mail about it. But for me, and several others I know, they were a good time.

However, TBC was earlier in the development cycle and people expected to have to put in some effort in order to get things done. Cataclysm came on the heels of WoTLK and it's AoE Spam fest heroic grind train extravaganza. People equated Heroics to badge farming at that point. So when they got bitch smacked upside the head with a challenge, they just sat their stunned for a second; Then they started to cry as they realized how hard it was going to be for them to faceroll their way though all the badges they needed to get the shit they wanted.

The real issue is not presenting players with a challenge, the real issue is when you have coddled your player base to the point where they expect everything for nothing and THEN present them with a challenge. Blizzard has made it abundantly clear that they do not care about stratifying the player base at this point. They are no longer offering an RPG, they are now running an online, virtual doll dressing service. The only way that works is if everyone is able to wear everything regardless of the effort put forth.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
I guess early WOW felt like Blizzard had a Vision? from a core group that really knew their stuff and what they wanted from their game and world. WOW today feels more like decisions are made by committee, with those stats, metrics, and data model's used to influence their next move.

It's designed and engineered brilliantly, and planned smartly. Nobody doubts Blizzard's success, data modeling or retention plans. Likewise, I don't see anyone saying they know how to run WOW better than Blizzard. Except Dumar and Killvek, and they don't count.
wink.png
I do wish Blizzard would hang it all out and try something vastly different. I keep hoping that'll be the case with Titan.

wink.png
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
I guess early WOW felt like Blizzard had a Vision? from a core group that really knew their stuff and what they wanted from their game and world. WOW today feels more like decisions are made by committee, with those stats, metrics, and data model's used to influence their next move.
yup.

It's designed terribly but engineered brilliantly.
fixed.
 

Voodoo Chile_sl

shitlord
3
0
What I am about to write is both entirely off-topic for this forum, yet entirely apropos to the subject about being burnt out on MMOs and PC/console games in general...

I can echo the sentiments of the OP exactly. I was crazy-addicted to WoW for a solid 4-years, and was really competitive with it (was in one of the first ~40 guilds that cleared 40-man Naxx; had an arena rating for ~2100). After I finally burned out, I eagerly switched over to Age of Conan. I almost made it to max level before I realized it was repetitive as fuck and there was ultimately nothing to do in the game. Then Warhammer came, and I realized that game was shit after about a week. I tried to go back to console and other PC games, but these days almost all games are shit. They are too easy, and are designed to last <20 hours. I'm 34 years old now, so my ability to compete in FPS games against 16 year-old Koreans is non-existent, not to mention I'm just not interested in that genre anymore.

After a long time of wandering in the desert, I finally found my salvation: board games. No, not the stupid shit people used to play back in the 1950s (Risk, Monopoly, etc). And not even modern noob games like Settlers of Catan. And certainly not "AmeriTrash" dice-rolling fests like Arkham Horror. Nope, I'm talking about super-strategic eurogames and wargames. The eurogames I like generally feature a lot of resource management and economic engine building (think of something like the Civilization series of PC games, or maybe the more recent XCOM video game). Wargames like Twilight Struggle maintain a level of tension over hours - an experience that I can no longer really get from MMOs or other PC games. Another genre of game that I have yet to get into are called "Living Card Games", which are somewhat like Magic, but with a slightly-less-gay monetary requirement. There are plenty of these out now in genres that would be a hit with this forum (Game of Thrones, cyberpunk, warhammer, Lord of the Rings, Cthulu, etc). So now I've got an entire shelf full of these board games, from a variety of genres, and I wish that I had started sooner, instead of repeatedly dropping $60 to play a shitty Xbox game that lasts 10 hours or less. Or gay-as-AIDS MMOs who couldn't design content or user interfaces worth a damn.

The only major downside to boardgames is finding a group that you'll enjoy playing with. Now you'll actually have to sit across from that neckbeard with Asperger's, instead of having him yell at you through vent from across the country. And you may have a hard time finding people who like playing your favorite kind of game.. This is a problem that is getting better, as we are in the midst of a board-game boom and more normal people are getting into the hobby.

For anyone at all interested in boardgames, there's another post on these forums. And boardgamegeek.com is the place to go for info and rankings.
 

James

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,804
7,056
Here's a little tip for everyone who thinks they know what WoW needs more than Blizzard does: Blizzard trackseverything. This means that when they frantically backpedal on the core design of an expansion (c.f. the complete 180 in difficulty curve design that happened after the trollroics and the frantic nerfing of Firelands/introduction of LFR), it usually means they've got all sorts of metrics on "PUG Heroics starts vs PUG Heroics completes", "Time played vs time idling" and the likeon top ofall of the "I am cancelling my subscription because of X" feedback and people shouting on messageboards.

So when they remove all the artificial difficulty gating, it's because theyknowthat's why people are quitting. See also: Ghostcrawler's uncharacteristically rapid admission that Golden Lotus dailies was a bad design they won't do in the future - they've almost certainly got data from a whole bunch of people who got to, say, honoured/revered and then went "Fuck this shit" and stopped repping.
This argument is a load of shit, you even contradict yourself right there in same post. Outstanding. Blizzard doesn't always know what's best for the game despite whatever metrics they may have to go on, otherwise those Golden Lotus dailies would have never been implemented in the first place. It's a tautological argument that can get the fuck right out of this thread as far as I'm concerned. Blizzard made bad decisions, and Blizzard is continuing to make bad decisions. Sub numbers dropping despite literally nothing even coming close to being as good as WoW is a pretty clear indicator that this is the case. All those stats that say Little Timmy hates dying in the Deadmines and all the impassioned pleas of shitty level 30 Erudite Shadowknights to LET ME JUST SEE THE CONTENT PLEASE mean dick all if they can't figure out how to make a single goddamn good decision. Well, maybe that's a bit harsh, they are supposedly ditching the flat progression cycle which can only mean good things. I'd like to see them stick to that, but we all know how it's going to end up.

The fact of the matter is that in the history of raiding population numbers have only gone up until Blizzard just recently decided to undermine the entire process behind it because they weren't getting enough usage fucking percentage points out of a raid zone that took months/years to develop. The experiment has failed, it's time to go back to the proven ways.
 
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TecKnoe

Molten Core Raider
3,182
51
In short, it isn't realistic to expect an MMO to come out which will keep you blissfully occupied for several hours a day indefinitely. We need to adjust our expectations and realize that it's perfectly normal to play these games for a few months, get bored, then stop playing until they've added new stuff or the burnout has worn off. MMO's are best played cyclically, not as a lifestyle.
EQ, and early WoW was definitely a lifestyle if you wanted to be top tier that is, I think its the new generation of gamers feeling like they deserve everything everyone else has regardless of time spent or how its spent, i wish there was still 40-70 man raids honestly that shit is what made them epic...
 

AngryDwarf

Trakanon Raider
10
1
"Metrics". Ha. I am completely sick of games designed by a math formula. What happened to interesting itemization? Everything now is just +gooder based on a formula. Farming a dungeon X times to get my gear as decided by the formula. Same with dailies. There's just no soul left. It's not just a WoW problem either.
 

alavaz

Trakanon Raider
2,003
714
EQ, and early WoW was definitely a lifestyle if you wanted to be top tier that is, I think its the new generation of gamers feeling like they deserve everything everyone else has regardless of time spent or how its spent, i wish there was still 40-70 man raids honestly that shit is what made them epic...
Yeah I've only been hearing that "new generation" line for the last ten years. Really, it's not the case at all. WoW has pretty distinct tiers of progression and not everyone completes hard modes with achieves within the expac and even fewer in a truly competitive timeframe.

In all honesty I'd play another game if it had a decent sized population, well tuned encounters and didn't look like utter shit. I'm hoping maybe that will be elder scrolls or EQN. We'll see though, it might just be WoW for another 5 years.
 

incadenza_sl

shitlord
25
0
I think the whole "we're just jaded" is a cop out for all the failure mmos out there. Early eq and wow just had a level of difficulty, polish, engaging gameplay and atmosphere that no one has been able to recreate.
 

Swagdaddy

There is a war going on over control of your mind
1,960
1,870
There is no tolerable "Required Group Play" MMOs out there. These new "Everything can easily solo" MMOs are fucking garbage.

"I can only play for an hour a week and don't want to fall behind" faggots ruined MMOs. I don't give a fuck if your a single dad/business owner/professional cup stacker/blahblahblah and need something casual, it's about time you found a new hobby instead of buying all these McMMOs (To coin someone else's phrase) and stop destroying the genre. It's retarded I'm stuck playing emus of ancient games.

There is probably some contradictory shit in my post but I really don't care, sick of playing emus and I'm mad as fuk pals.
 
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Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
<Gold Donor>
16,524
12,564
I guess early WOW felt like Blizzard had a Vision? from a core group that really knew their stuff and what they wanted from their game and world.
Well, to answer your own question, they are on Titan now. So let's hope that passion and ideal development team still exists on this new project.

I think you are also right in that with those people out of the design, it will go to more folks to just want to create fun. Albeit, theme park fun. Not challenges.

With that said, World of Warcraft (For MMORPG's) is WAY beyond the cash cow of it's life cycle, and it's amazing how Blizzard has been able to keep it from tipping into major decline. We are talking over 8 years now since the release of this game. A majority (Not all) of titles in this genre at this stage of the game would either be put on Life support without updates, or dead.
 

James

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,804
7,056
Blizzard can't even make Diablo right anymore and they invented the goddamn genre, I'm not entirely sure anyone should be optimistic about Titan.
 
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Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,036
Here's a little tip for everyone who thinks they know what WoW needs more than Blizzard does: Blizzard trackseverything. This means that when they frantically backpedal on the core design of an expansion (c.f. the complete 180 in difficulty curve design that happened after the trollroics and the frantic nerfing of Firelands/introduction of LFR), it usually means they've got all sorts of metrics on "PUG Heroics starts vs PUG Heroics completes", "Time played vs time idling" and the likeon top ofall of the "I am cancelling my subscription because of X" feedback and people shouting on messageboards.

So when they remove all the artificial difficulty gating, it's because theyknowthat's why people are quitting. See also: Ghostcrawler's uncharacteristically rapid admission that Golden Lotus dailies was a bad design they won't do in the future - they've almost certainly got data from a whole bunch of people who got to, say, honoured/revered and then went "Fuck this shit" and stopped repping.
Here is a little tip--people who read statistics have to interpret them. And there are entire industries which have been formed off interpreting the same statistics in different ways. Heck, do you know in polling many times the answer given isn't trusted? Yep, even a DIRECT answer to a question isn't trusted because of how many variables can surround the answer (Like severity.) So, for example, people can leave after non-completion of dungeon X/Y/Z and then answer the game is frustrating, but when you do a more comprehensive review, you find the only reason they found it frustrating was because they were getting beaten in PvP and felt like weapons from X/Y/Z were the answer. OR you might find out they found it frustrating, but it was that factor, combined with the lack of new content, that made them quit, rather than continuing to learn.

Overall, I agree with you about the difficulty thing, to. Remember that. I don't believe making derp mode was a good idea--I liked it when they used organic difficulty "variables" to make it easier....Like for example, if someone needs to some kiting of death beam 104, then let the raid be able to pick who that is (By standing in certain spots, or whatever) so you can farm these difficult jobs out to your better players and allow your weaker ones to enjoy the same fight, but an easier version. This puts slightly more difficulty on guild/raid leadership and certain players within the raid, so the fight itself can still feel like an achievement (Because those people need to learn it) but it's not frustrating for "bad player that's nice and helpful 101". But overall, I agree lower difficulty on bad players is better--it's always better when poor players can see content, but it's even BETTER when they can see that content WITH good players AND they don't feel like they had to hit the herp derp switch to get through it.

But claiming Blizzard in prescient because of data is...laughable. They obviously aren't. And I'm sure Blizzard has quite a few statisticians that even conduct polling on test groups for them. So, they aren't bad at interpreting numbers, I'm sure of it. But understanding what those numbers lead to in such a subjective environment, with so many variables, is VERY difficulty. And Blizzard even says this, over and over, that despite their metrics, it's impossible to "know" what the issue is--especially given that in all likelihood, the issue is NOT one thing and actually a composite of tons of different things. (and that's saying nothing of how most players are clueless about what they actually "want" in a game anyway.)

Which is another reason why it's always cringe worthy when people tell Sandbox gamers that latest Sandbox game failed because no one wants to play Sandbox games--completely leaving out engineering, balance, world design, server stability, bugs and tons of other things that are needed to make MMO's work. On the same token, it's often absurd that people never conclude that anyone thingis a key to Blizzard success. The fact is, this game was far more popular when it required 25 people to raid, and far less of the overall content was accessible--so I could easily make some bullshit coincidental argument about numbers, like you're doing. But I'd be discounting the games age and how difficulty worked on a social level, rather than a game level back then and how bosses per month in new content was much higher (Even if each boss was simpler and less scripted) or fuck even how loot was far more random! (Making the age old argument that people like to gamble.)tons and tonsof other issues/mechanics that have come and gone since then that that time period that could also explain the decline in numbers since Vanilla.

And in that same vein, you're just being naive to think it's one thing that made Cata suck, especially "just" difficulty (Which again, I agree with you even.)--when there are other factors, like that Cata had TEN MONTHS between content generation on average, by far the slowest in terms of bosses per time. So I could easily say that people care less about highly complex, 200 mechanic bosses (Like the fire giant) and simply wantMOREbosses who are overall simpler and that's the reason why Cata sucked! Or the fact that Cata had no way to gear without jumping right into the hard shit, so you couldn't blunt the curve with proper progression/farming (IE there was no "easy" raid to farm loots to make the next raid easier.)--there were just a fuckingtonof issues aside from difficulty . It's not ONE thing.
 
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xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
6,763
I guess early WOW felt like Blizzard had a Vision? from a core group that really knew their stuff and what they wanted from their game and world. WOW today feels more like decisions are made by committee, with those stats, metrics, and data model's used to influence their next move.
Activision/Blizzard
 

Sir Funk

Molten Core Raider
1,251
155
What we haven't seen, and what we need to see, is an episodic MMORPG. Asheron's Call taken to the next level. Definitely subscription based, but it needs to have MONTHLY updates to storyline (with REAL lore and intriguing plot)--figure out how to make decisions change the story differently based on each server and you're that much more golden.

Static content just isn't going to cut it anymore. Take people through a journey each month instead of just giving them dailies to grind. Provide storytellers with the tools needed and the medium has so much potential for growth above what it is right now.
 
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