This I definitely I agree too. There are so many small things that's just dumb and should have been corrected years ago, I doubt it was outside Dev team jurisdiction to correct them. Whenever it Brad, Smed, SOE, or who ever - they only got themselves to blame for where they are now.
Why all the Emulated EQ servers if EQ is free to play?
- Thread starter Elidroth_sl
- Start date
Kreugen
Vyemm Raider
- 6,599
- 793
Everquest started out as a very, very simple game. You found people, you killed shit, you got loot. If it wasn't loot you can use, you tried to trade it for something you want. But Everquest has had what, 18 expansions? It's an old, bloated game with so much shit piled on top of it that if you ever stopped playing at any point, picking it back up again is nearly impossible. There's what, four different UIs for entering an instance? Thousands of AA, hundreds of (empty) zones, dozens of stats on items when most have been capped for a decade, piles of systems that were introduced in an expansion and then never used again, etc. Some EMUs are about preserving that pristine classic experience, flaws and all, but others are simply about a return to simplicity while also fixing some things.
But what I wanted to get to was the bit about boxing vs LFG. In the early days of EQ, there were a limited number of zones for any given level range, and you just went there and grouped up with whoever happened to be around and then you squatted in one place and grinded mobs. If you want a specific piece of loot, things got more complicated - now you needed to put together a group that was willing to camp for that item, vs simply a group that was looking to get XP. But then EQ started adding things like missions, and augments, and loot tiers, and nearly everything became No Drop. Now you need to find a group that is willing to do mission 3 of a 5 mission series that requires you to first complete a different set of missions to unlock the zone that the missions you need are in. And with the mountains of items scattered everywhere you have people off class X wanting to camp this rare and people of class Y wanting to camp that one and people of class Z wanting to camp a different zone and they are each trying to LFG for that specific thing. So you help one person for hours and hours and then another person for hours on end all in the hope that those people will then be willing to go do the thing you want to do. And exactly how long do you have to play that you can help all of these people instead of helping yourself? So you just say fuck all that and give up on grouping entirely, which is what most have done. Adding complexity has killed grouping.
So what EMUs bring is simplicity. There isn't much gear to camp, you can trade most of it, and for the most part you can just jump in a group and starting grinding wherever. You don't have to worry about missions or access quests or making a spreadsheet to figure out what order to buy the hundreds of goddamn AAs in. And loot actually has an impact beyond AC/HP/MANA and you don't have 40 hotkeys or bags full of click buffs and you don't need a checklist to track what missions you need and so on.
What EQ has done over time is effectively shot itself in the head. Its most unique feature is its near total reliance on playing with others. But then it went and made actually playing with others A TOTAL PAIN IN THE ASS. For the last 15 years EQ should have focused on improving the entire process of getting players together and keeping the game simple. Instead everything it has done has done the opposite. You've made a game where playing with others is downright obnoxious yet still also required. People come up with absurd things to blame like instancing and POP teleports and so on when none of that has a damn thing to do with the fact that the game gives players goals that conflict with one another rather than compliment. Six people in a group and all six will have different goals that take them to different places.
The most fundamental problem with EQ has never changed from day 1: Other players are your ENEMY. They take your loot, they take your XP, they waste your time. You put up with this in the hope that they will return the favor - and over time you run into enough shitheads that you realize you are wasting your time more often than not. And this has only gotten worse with time, and EMUs don't fix the problem, but they do rewind EQ to a time where it was less of a problem.
But what I wanted to get to was the bit about boxing vs LFG. In the early days of EQ, there were a limited number of zones for any given level range, and you just went there and grouped up with whoever happened to be around and then you squatted in one place and grinded mobs. If you want a specific piece of loot, things got more complicated - now you needed to put together a group that was willing to camp for that item, vs simply a group that was looking to get XP. But then EQ started adding things like missions, and augments, and loot tiers, and nearly everything became No Drop. Now you need to find a group that is willing to do mission 3 of a 5 mission series that requires you to first complete a different set of missions to unlock the zone that the missions you need are in. And with the mountains of items scattered everywhere you have people off class X wanting to camp this rare and people of class Y wanting to camp that one and people of class Z wanting to camp a different zone and they are each trying to LFG for that specific thing. So you help one person for hours and hours and then another person for hours on end all in the hope that those people will then be willing to go do the thing you want to do. And exactly how long do you have to play that you can help all of these people instead of helping yourself? So you just say fuck all that and give up on grouping entirely, which is what most have done. Adding complexity has killed grouping.
So what EMUs bring is simplicity. There isn't much gear to camp, you can trade most of it, and for the most part you can just jump in a group and starting grinding wherever. You don't have to worry about missions or access quests or making a spreadsheet to figure out what order to buy the hundreds of goddamn AAs in. And loot actually has an impact beyond AC/HP/MANA and you don't have 40 hotkeys or bags full of click buffs and you don't need a checklist to track what missions you need and so on.
What EQ has done over time is effectively shot itself in the head. Its most unique feature is its near total reliance on playing with others. But then it went and made actually playing with others A TOTAL PAIN IN THE ASS. For the last 15 years EQ should have focused on improving the entire process of getting players together and keeping the game simple. Instead everything it has done has done the opposite. You've made a game where playing with others is downright obnoxious yet still also required. People come up with absurd things to blame like instancing and POP teleports and so on when none of that has a damn thing to do with the fact that the game gives players goals that conflict with one another rather than compliment. Six people in a group and all six will have different goals that take them to different places.
The most fundamental problem with EQ has never changed from day 1: Other players are your ENEMY. They take your loot, they take your XP, they waste your time. You put up with this in the hope that they will return the favor - and over time you run into enough shitheads that you realize you are wasting your time more often than not. And this has only gotten worse with time, and EMUs don't fix the problem, but they do rewind EQ to a time where it was less of a problem.
This is a very good observation Kreugen!
EQ has always been very uneven game, but each next expansion was more and more geared towards high end progression/raiding, rather than casual playing (or even casual grouping). If player joins today - whats he going to do? Run around solo with a merc till he hits max level, then farms 1,000 AA and a year later MAYBE get accepted to a high end guild never seeing any of the content that was released in previous 10 years/expansions?
EQ has always been very uneven game, but each next expansion was more and more geared towards high end progression/raiding, rather than casual playing (or even casual grouping). If player joins today - whats he going to do? Run around solo with a merc till he hits max level, then farms 1,000 AA and a year later MAYBE get accepted to a high end guild never seeing any of the content that was released in previous 10 years/expansions?
yamikazo
Trakanon Raider
- 1,361
- 546
@ChaosSlayer: I PL'd a character yesterday to 95. Fresh character. No magic PL tricks. Yes, you'd need a friend or two to help you out. It doesn't take a year to get max level and 1,000 AA. Autogrant helps, too.
Point still valid, but. the game is EZ mode now. No need for hyperbole or misinformation.
Point still valid, but. the game is EZ mode now. No need for hyperbole or misinformation.
Kreugen
Vyemm Raider
- 6,599
- 793
I should go back and point out that I like the missions and tiered zones etc that I so thoroughly tear down in my post. The problem is they are in Everquest, a game that does nearly nothing to help you find people who want to do those things, and fails to provide much reason for people to do those things more than once - further shrinking the likelihood of finding people to do them. It all just compounds the problem of putting together a group to do anything other than grind out AA xp. If you want to do all of the group content, you NEED to box it all yourself. This is far less true on EMU servers that lave less zones and simply less bullshit pulling people every which way.
Siddar
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
- 6,356
- 5,898
Player wont get into any raiding guild without having a subscription. Once they have that they will be auto granted Max AA up through underfoot expansion somewhere between 4-5k AA.
They can also just skip leveling up to level 85 by spending 3500sc and buying a heroic character upgrade that will level them to 85 automatically along with max AA, HoT T1 group gear, and maxed skills for a level 85.
So reality is you start at 85 with max AA and then grind out last 15 levels and a couple hundred more key AA that only open up at higher levels then 85 and your set.
The aboves changes only happened in the last few months though so many former players are not aware of them.
I can't believe you made this thread.
Not knowing the answer to this question, or feeling the need to ask this question just shows complete ignorance.
The default eqemu stuff is super late expansions and developers have to spend years pulling that crap out. Then ontop of that, they never share their source and horde it like gold so people will play on their server only. The server then dies, and so does all that work.
Not knowing the answer to this question, or feeling the need to ask this question just shows complete ignorance.
The default eqemu stuff is super late expansions and developers have to spend years pulling that crap out. Then ontop of that, they never share their source and horde it like gold so people will play on their server only. The server then dies, and so does all that work.
Oh really? Where is the Classic only Eqemu source at?
Selectively sharing crums doesn't make a cake, bro.
Gryphe
Golden Knight of the Realm
- 63
- 9
This is an important point. With the EQ F2P model and the limits on items/augs, you can't even equip some items from Gates of Discord - a 10 year old expansion.
That said, I actually stopped playing on emulated servers because the professionalism and consistency of the SOE servers weren't there.
EDIT: Fixed GoD age - 10 years, not 14
Siddar
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
- 6,356
- 5,898
If I was to recommend to someone starting EQ how to go about doing it. I would recommend 2 accounts. CotF x 2, Heroic Characters x 2, subscriptions x 2.
That's $180 upfront then $30 a month after the initial months investment.
Price is kinda steep for a 15 year old game but the above will let you access most current highend group content once you reach level 100.
I most certainly wouldnt try and join modern EQ with a single account looking to group with others as I leveled at this this point.
That's $180 upfront then $30 a month after the initial months investment.
Price is kinda steep for a 15 year old game but the above will let you access most current highend group content once you reach level 100.
I most certainly wouldnt try and join modern EQ with a single account looking to group with others as I leveled at this this point.
Louis
Trakanon Raider
- 2,836
- 1,105
I agree with the 'EQ is full of bloated crap and is way too complicated' argument but not this:
Enemies also have the effect of creating allies. I once joined a guild just because their rival guild pissed me off from acting like jackasses. Many of my fondest memories of the game were when we beat every other rival guild to server first kills and the drama it created because they thought they were better than us. It's just the nature of any multiplayer game to have good and bad actors.
If Guk is empty of spawns because there are 100 players in it, then that is a problem with static respawn timers, not players existing in the game. Beyond that, EQ was far more rewarding in groups than solo 95% of the time.
If your friends aren't helping you camp your shit after you camped their shit, it's not the game's fault-- it's your greedy asshole friends' fault or your fault for selecting your friends badly.
I think the big reason why some people are so vehemently anti-EQ and others, like me, are pro-EQ (classic EQ) is because each player had a dramatically different experience in the game due to the company they kept. I was very fortunate to be in a guild full of great people which made the game a joy to experience up until GoD made me quit. I never had issues with friends not camping my stuff. In fact one time they practically forced me to come loot something because I was being juvenile about something I don't remember.
That is essentially an argument against multiplayer in general. In Starcraft and Quake, 'other players are the enemy' there as well. EQ was just designed in a way that put players in competition against one another. Some people enjoy the competition. The problem isn't the competition so much as it is things like needing to poopsock spawns to know when they respawn, respawn times being static when severs have varied populations, the game simply having too little content for the population, a single guild being able to monopolize every raid boss because they have staggered respawn times, long respawn bottleneck/gateway encounters, easily griefable content etc.
Enemies also have the effect of creating allies. I once joined a guild just because their rival guild pissed me off from acting like jackasses. Many of my fondest memories of the game were when we beat every other rival guild to server first kills and the drama it created because they thought they were better than us. It's just the nature of any multiplayer game to have good and bad actors.
If Guk is empty of spawns because there are 100 players in it, then that is a problem with static respawn timers, not players existing in the game. Beyond that, EQ was far more rewarding in groups than solo 95% of the time.
If your friends aren't helping you camp your shit after you camped their shit, it's not the game's fault-- it's your greedy asshole friends' fault or your fault for selecting your friends badly.
I think the big reason why some people are so vehemently anti-EQ and others, like me, are pro-EQ (classic EQ) is because each player had a dramatically different experience in the game due to the company they kept. I was very fortunate to be in a guild full of great people which made the game a joy to experience up until GoD made me quit. I never had issues with friends not camping my stuff. In fact one time they practically forced me to come loot something because I was being juvenile about something I don't remember.
yamikazo
Trakanon Raider
- 1,361
- 546
A few independent thoughts:
Current EQ is the same engine, but the game has morphed and evolved so many times along the way it's not the same experience.
If there was a good, well-run emu locked in Velious-PoP I'd play there. PEQ is in GoD, which is just an abomination; perhaps once Omens releases I'll spend some time there again.
Also, EQ is not Free to Play. Some classes can sort of play fine F2P or silver, but none that hold my attention. Expansions are more affordable than ever - I know back when I quit back in 2007 there was no box set and you had to purchase each expansion individually.
Current EQ is the same engine, but the game has morphed and evolved so many times along the way it's not the same experience.
If there was a good, well-run emu locked in Velious-PoP I'd play there. PEQ is in GoD, which is just an abomination; perhaps once Omens releases I'll spend some time there again.
Also, EQ is not Free to Play. Some classes can sort of play fine F2P or silver, but none that hold my attention. Expansions are more affordable than ever - I know back when I quit back in 2007 there was no box set and you had to purchase each expansion individually.
It's kind of obvious and I've got little doubt you knew the answer before asking. Sure, there are some wild EMUs out there but the most popular is one based around something current EQ isn't: classic EQ. I actually still play EQ Live but you've got to be intentionally ignoring the obvious when you imply LFG is still LFG because it's so clearly not. There are some lingering elements of EverQuest, but for the most part it's a totally different experience today.
You even talked about pitching a game like classic EQ to Smedley and people (like me) read too much into it in hopes that something like classic EQ might emerge. It's why people initially gave a shit about Pantheon and Brad until the whole project got fucked over and Brad scored $45K for nothing.
I'm definitely someone OK with change and fresh ideas in MMO development, but I love old school shit, too, and that's what something like P99 provides. But come on dude, you knew that.
You even talked about pitching a game like classic EQ to Smedley and people (like me) read too much into it in hopes that something like classic EQ might emerge. It's why people initially gave a shit about Pantheon and Brad until the whole project got fucked over and Brad scored $45K for nothing.
I'm definitely someone OK with change and fresh ideas in MMO development, but I love old school shit, too, and that's what something like P99 provides. But come on dude, you knew that.
Fifey
Trakanon Raider
- 2,898
- 962
I tried to go back to playing EQlive, got to like 75 or so and 1200 AA's before I just gave up. It was unfun grinding out stupid quests by myself, hurrr go kill these scarecrows, now you get experience.
I would of played EQMac till the end of time if it didn't get shut down. Shit, I easily would of paid 15/month for my 4box crew but you never gave us that option.
I would of played EQMac till the end of time if it didn't get shut down. Shit, I easily would of paid 15/month for my 4box crew but you never gave us that option.