World of Warcraft: Current Year

Uriel said:

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Well that's a kick in the dick for sure.

People were having fun so they fucked over Delves.

HOTFIXES​

September 12, 2024

Delves

• Fixed a bug causing bosses to scale incorrectly with more players.
• Increased the health scaling of enemies in Delves while grouped with other players.
• Reduced the damage scaling of many enemy abilities in Delves while grouped with other players.
• Adjusted enemy targeting preferences in Delves.
  • Developers’ notes: Our goal is to match the difficulty of solo and group play as much as possible in Delves. When looking at data on group delves, we noticed unexpectedly low combat times coupled with unexpectedly high lethality. We identified the root cause of this issue and corrected it. This fix will increase the health scaling of enemies per additional player present, but we are also reducing the damage scaling of many abilities to compensate.
• Zekvir’s influence has grown stronger, introducing a new enemy variant in Delve Tier 8.
• Fixed an issue where the health bar UI could fail to display values correctly in Zekvir’s Lair while in a group.
• Revives Remaining has changed to Lives Remaining. Now any time a player dies, the counter is reduced (was any time a player releases spirit). In addition, reaching a checkpoint will now provide +1 life.
  • Developer’s note: This mechanic was proving to be confusing in its functionality, making it a mistake to release spirit when playing with certain compositions. This change should make the experience more consistent regardless of group size or makeup.

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The scaling is very bad now. I was in a five man in Underkeep and the shockwave spell was doing 4 million damage to me.

One wipe can kill a full group delve now too.

Daidraco said:

You really only have a few options at this point. One, you be patient and just let people learn.

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I'm happy to do that for boss tactics, spent a long time in Grim Batol on day one.

The issue I specifically had was a boss with adds and group wide aoe with no other tactics. I was doing more DPS than the DPS even though they had aoe opportunities with the adds and I didn't with the boss.

So eventually myself and the healer ran out of cooldowns to mitigate the raidwides. You can't learn your way out of that.

This happened more than once.

Araxen said:

People were having fun so they fucked over Delves.



The scaling is very bad now. I was in a five man in Underkeep and the shockwave spell was doing 4 million damage to me.

One wipe can kill a full group delve now too.

Click to expand...

Post on Reddit claims groups getting hit for 20 million ae damage. Unavoidable ae and tanks getting 1 shot.

Neat trick? Hotfix went live and people doing delves couldn't finish them.

Instead of simply swapping the damage calcs for solo and group, they redid them and the previous solo numbers are baseline and scale up from there.

Solo delves mobs are still hitting too hard, and groups are getting insta-gibbed.

These people can't math at all.

They should've just kept them solo. Instead of just balancing each role solo, now they have to also balance for 4 different group sizes made up of 3 possible roles.

It's not just that scaling sucks, it's that:

Various classes and specs are bringing drastically different toolsets with them.
Each individual potentially has a different Brann (between levels and equipment) AND every Brann is going to use their abilities at different times that players have no control over.
Blizz has also tied power progression over the entire season into this activity.

It's equivalent to if the Legion mage tower had one single layout for all classes, a pet that activated randomly, and dropped high / max level gear, so that instead of completing it once if you wanted the challenge, you _have to_ complete it week in and week out regardless of your toolkit and random pet.

I just don't see that ever working.

Fucker said:

Post on Reddit claims groups getting hit for 20 million ae damage. Unavoidable ae and tanks getting 1 shot.

Neat trick? Hotfix went live and people doing delves couldn't finish them.

Instead of simply swapping the damage calcs for solo and group, they redid them and the previous solo numbers are baseline and scale up from there.

Solo delves mobs are still hitting too hard, and groups are getting insta-gibbed.

These people can't math at all.

Click to expand...

Yep before the scaling changes there was one mini boss that does little swirls all over and spikes that come up from the ground. Can't see most of them because they are underneath terrain and objects and all that. Getting hit by one is 10M and that was with 2 people on an 11.

The other problem is they've decided the delves gear realistically ends at the 606-610 range, but the delves scale up to mythic. This is like having M+ drops stop at heroic but difficulty scaling for mythic raid gear. What's the point of this? If you can't actually complete everything within it's own reward system it's not actually a standalone feature.

It's clear delves are a distant care despite assurances that this time scenarios are a real endgame.

Delve adjacent question, are the delve completion quests 1 time per toon, or are they a daily/weekly thing? Kind of tired of MSQ after 3 runs, and those quests are really good xp.

Wombat said:

It's not just that scaling sucks, it's that:

Various classes and specs are bringing drastically different toolsets with them.
Each individual potentially has a different Brann (between levels and equipment) AND every Brann is going to use their abilities at different times that players have no control over.
Blizz has also tied power progression over the entire season into this activity.

It's equivalent to if the Legion mage tower had one single layout for all classes, a pet that activated randomly, and dropped high / max level gear, so that instead of completing it once if you wanted the challenge, you _have to_ complete it week in and week out regardless of your toolkit and random pet.

I just don't see that ever working.

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I enjoyed finding them in the open world when levelling, felt like a replacement for the old elite areas from Classic.

These would be a really nice way to teach dungeon mechanics and provide gear and exp to alts.

The current system is actually fine for some specs if it was solo only, as a challenge to keep the levelling solo content relevent at max level.

Why it's parallel to dungeons with groups and higher ilvl than Mythic I have no idea.

They always have some sort of weird restriction with fucked up maths.

All my factions are 13/14 except for Dornogal which is still 10. I have no idea what I'm missing faction wise with Dornogal but it must be something systemic?

Qhue said:

All my factions are 13/14 except for Dornogal which is still 10. I have no idea what I'm missing faction wise with Dornogal but it must be something systemic?

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The only weekly thing I think is the dumb theater thing, other than that you can farm rares weekly and select it as your weekly quest rep bump. I think that's basically the outlay of every faction though, one event + farm rares?

Araxen said:

People were having fun so they fucked over Delves.



The scaling is very bad now. I was in a five man in Underkeep and the shockwave spell was doing 4 million damage to me.

One wipe can kill a full group delve now too.

Click to expand...

Honestly, I knew "something" was going to happen eventually. Heroics are at 571, and Mythic is 593. But where did 90% of my 603, and my 610 gear come from? Delves. (599 on Shaman, 598 on Warlock). Delves, shit man.. I'd wipe them out on both characters, all four back to back, because they are quick, and simple. But that reward structure doesnt fucking match. I spend an hour and a half on delves for the week, and have better gear than what I would ever get out of a Mythic dungeon. NEVER MIND THE VAULT - where Im getting 3 choices of a 616 out of the vault for Delves, but for Mythics? A choice of 3 fucking 606's. I know that when Mythic+ opens up, this will be a non-conversation. But RIGHT NOW - this is all the content available, and it makes no fucking sense.

But the scaling? This shit is awful and a lot of the Delves arent setup for different classes in the least like Wombat said. To do an 8 by myself as a Warlock would be a snooze fest. "Oh no. They nuked my pet to death. Let me insta-cast a new pet and use a health stone to restore 90% of my HP every use. Oh no. Im out of health stones after that last pet death. Let me summon another 3 while in combat and go back to watching youtube." To do an 8 by myself as my shaman, whether thats elemental, enhancement and obviously as a resto - I just dont think it would be very fun or possible in some cases at the item level range we're all at now. Brann is 30 something now, and he's fantastic DPS by himself and with the right, epic tier, curio's - he's a pretty great healer. But he's not bringing the "tank" role to the instance for classes that need that meat shield like my Shaman.

Looking at those number's, the differences I think.. the NPC nukes are doing 20-25% of HP as the role you are. So a Tank, they're guesstimating that you have 8-11 million HP. So 2.5 million sounds roughly right, and to be quite honest - tanks have multiple interrupts so that shouldnt ever be a problem unless you're diving into an entire group of enemies. Which is obviously not what they want people doing. 1.3 million is about right for your average DPS by comparison for 25%. Which makes more sense when they say "606 is the suggested item level for this Delve" because then, they know that you roughly have that amount of HP.

Something I find amusing about Delves, especially in the higher tiers? ... So Juva and I did a tier 9 Delve yesterday. You know what I wanted in our tool kit that neither of us had in the roles/classes we were playing? A long crowd control ability like Sap or Polymorph. You know what would have really helped us with the empowered groups? (Which to be honest, were the only mobs that were even remotely a struggle) A tank. What would have really helped with all those nukes, traps and more? A multi-talented class like the Rogue. The amusing part? After we left, I realized that the Developers were making the higher tiers into an old Dungeon Crawl experience with the most optimum setup of classes being the same ones that you used to tread through the old Dire Maul, Hellfire Ramparts, etc. when they were current. Let me repeat myself "TO MAKE HIGH END DELVES DIFFICULT WITHOUT A TIMER - THEYRE REUSING TACTICS FROM OLD DUNGEONS" ... its fucking stupid and hilarious at the same time.

Chris said:

I'm happy to do that for boss tactics, spent a long time in Grim Batol on day one.

The issue I specifically had was a boss with adds and group wide aoe with no other tactics. I was doing more DPS than the DPS even though they had aoe opportunities with the adds and I didn't with the boss.

So eventually myself and the healer ran out of cooldowns to mitigate the raidwides. You can't learn your way out of that.

This happened more than once.

Click to expand...

Shit happens man. You seem to be defeated, mentally, by a few bad come ups. As far as cool downs - use every tool in your box to compensate, at any time. If thats what you're saying, then by all means.. keep at it. It'll get better. You're concentrating on 593 gear, and the rest of us are over here bitching about Delves getting harder because the rewards are way the fuck better, lol. From what I understand, Bellular has some kind of huge mega guild. Theyre all cross server, cross faction, now - so join his and find a crew.

Qhue said:

All my factions are 13/14 except for Dornogal which is still 10. I have no idea what I'm missing faction wise with Dornogal but it must be something systemic?

Click to expand...

This was one of my bigger complaints back at the start when I was trying to be a completionist. There are quests particular to a zone, that require you to go back and forth between different zones in order to finish up that last particular quest. Like the quest in Dornogal that held me up was the bullshit one with the Magistrate. Where you help the same guy, in disguise, in the Deep, get away from some Nerubians? Kobolds? One of them. Then you meet the same magistrate, again, as himself - as the Embassador for the Earthen, meeting the Hollowfall people and you help negotiate a trade treaty between them. All because Dwarf from the Stonevault was killing every envoy that was sent to them. Then, you have to go back to Dornogal and do a follow up quest to repeat the story line.

That sounds all well and good - but the pain in the ass part? THERE ARE NO BREAD CRUMBS TO PICK UP EACH QUEST. So you have to take every fucking side quest you see and do that. Then there are quest markers that DONT show up on the map until you fly over them with your mount. THEN, on top of that, there are quests that only show up once a refresh. Like the little Commander and her subordinate in Hollowfall right there at all the Mushroom/fungal people in the bottom right of the zone? She has had a new quest multiple times for me. I was thinking it was a daily at first that wasnt marked because the quest.. is roughly the same shit every fucking time. BUT NO - it eventually leads to some quest that is an achievement by itself that isnt involved in the zone completion achievement. Its like someone told the quest designer to make a quest like this, and this was their first time doing it.

But there is an addon that I eventually got that just tracks every single quest. Theres multiple of that type of addon, so whatever you "fancy" as they all ping the database for quest completion and you can turn on what you have and what you dont have.

Daidraco said:

Honestly, I knew "something" was going to happen eventually. Heroics are at 571, and Mythic is 593. But where did 90% of my 603, and my 610 gear come from? Delves. (599 on Shaman, 598 on Warlock). Delves, shit man.. I'd wipe them out on both characters, all four back to back, because they are quick, and simple. But that reward structure doesnt fucking match. I spend an hour and a half on delves for the week, and have better gear than what I would ever get out of a Mythic dungeon. NEVER MIND THE VAULT - where Im getting 3 choices of a 616 out of the vault for Delves, but for Mythics? A choice of 3 fucking 606's. I know that when Mythic+ opens up, this will be a non-conversation. But RIGHT NOW - this is all the content available, and it makes no fucking sense.

But the scaling? This shit is awful and a lot of the Delves arent setup for different classes in the least like Wombat said. To do an 8 by myself as a Warlock would be a snooze fest. "Oh no. They nuked my pet to death. Let me insta-cast a new pet and use a health stone to restore 90% of my HP every use. Oh no. Im out of health stones after that last pet death. Let me summon another 3 while in combat and go back to watching youtube." To do an 8 by myself as my shaman, whether thats elemental, enhancement and obviously as a resto - I just dont think it would be very fun or possible in some cases at the item level range we're all at now. Brann is 30 something now, and he's fantastic DPS by himself and with the right, epic tier, curio's - he's a pretty great healer. But he's not bringing the "tank" role to the instance for classes that need that meat shield like my Shaman.

Looking at those number's, the differences I think.. the NPC nukes are doing 20-25% of HP as the role you are. So a Tank, they're guesstimating that you have 8-11 million HP. So 2.5 million sounds roughly right, and to be quite honest - tanks have multiple interrupts so that shouldnt ever be a problem unless you're diving into an entire group of enemies. Which is obviously not what they want people doing. 1.3 million is about right for your average DPS by comparison for 25%. Which makes more sense when they say "606 is the suggested item level for this Delve" because then, they know that you roughly have that amount of HP.

Something I find amusing about Delves, especially in the higher tiers? ... So Juva and I did a tier 9 Delve yesterday. You know what I wanted in our tool kit that neither of us had in the roles/classes we were playing? A long crowd control ability like Sap or Polymorph. You know what would have really helped us with the empowered groups? (Which to be honest, were the only mobs that were even remotely a struggle) A tank. What would have really helped with all those nukes, traps and more? A multi-talented class like the Rogue. The amusing part? After we left, I realized that the Developers were making the higher tiers into an old Dungeon Crawl experience with the most optimum setup of classes being the same ones that you used to tread through the old Dire Maul, Hellfire Ramparts, etc. when they were current. Let me repeat myself "TO MAKE HIGH END DELVES DIFFICULT WITHOUT A TIMER - THEYRE REUSING TACTICS FROM OLD DUNGEONS" ... its fucking stupid and hilarious at the same time.

Shit happens man. You seem to be defeated, mentally, by a few bad come ups. As far as cool downs - use every tool in your box to compensate, at any time. If thats what you're saying, then by all means.. keep at it. It'll get better. You're concentrating on 593 gear, and the rest of us are over here bitching about Delves getting harder because the rewards are way the fuck better, lol. From what I understand, Bellular has some kind of huge mega guild. Theyre all cross server, cross faction, now - so join his and find a crew.


This was one of my bigger complaints back at the start when I was trying to be a completionist. There are quests particular to a zone, that require you to go back and forth between different zones in order to finish up that last particular quest. Like the quest in Dornogal that held me up was the bullshit one with the Magistrate. Where you help the same guy, in disguise, in the Deep, get away from some Nerubians? Kobolds? One of them. Then you meet the same magistrate, again, as himself - as the Embassador for the Earthen, meeting the Hollowfall people and you help negotiate a trade treaty between them. All because Dwarf from the Stonevault was killing every envoy that was sent to them. Then, you have to go back to Dornogal and do a follow up quest to repeat the story line.

That sounds all well and good - but the pain in the ass part? THERE ARE NO BREAD CRUMBS TO PICK UP EACH QUEST. So you have to take every fucking side quest you see and do that. Then there are quest markers that DONT show up on the map until you fly over them with your mount. THEN, on top of that, there are quests that only show up once a refresh. Like the little Commander and her subordinate in Hollowfall right there at all the Mushroom/fungal people in the bottom right of the zone? She has had a new quest multiple times for me. I was thinking it was a daily at first that wasnt marked because the quest.. is roughly the same shit every fucking time. BUT NO - it eventually leads to some quest that is an achievement by itself that isnt involved in the zone completion achievement. Its like someone told the quest designer to make a quest like this, and this was their first time doing it.

But there is an addon that I eventually got that just tracks every single quest. Theres multiple of that type of addon, so whatever you "fancy" as they all ping the database for quest completion and you can turn on what you have and what you dont have.

Click to expand...

The biggest issue with Delves is that the scaling is made to 'even' portions of things out, but not actually scale to make things more equivalent between classes/specs in totality. For example, why should a mob do 25% damage to a tank and a DPS? Because tanks are doing 25% of the damage of a DPS. It's like they're using a spreadsheet.

I won't even dignify the most recent changes because they aren't achievable for most specs, and I assume they will continue to get hotfixes through the next week.

Im at 15 or 16 with all renowns. This addon will help you get all the quests that give rep outside of WQ's or Weekly's


I am sure they will fix delves. I have no idea what the "difficulty" is supposed to be, and I am not sure even they know, but I expect s1 to be iteration and fuckups, and s2 to have a good idea of what is what (hopefully)

Daidraco said:

Honestly, I knew "something" was going to happen eventually. Heroics are at 571, and Mythic is 593. But where did 90% of my 603, and my 610 gear come from? Delves. (599 on Shaman, 598 on Warlock). Delves, shit man.. I'd wipe them out on both characters, all four back to back, because they are quick, and simple. But that reward structure doesnt fucking match. I spend an hour and a half on delves for the week, and have better gear than what I would ever get out of a Mythic dungeon. NEVER MIND THE VAULT - where Im getting 3 choices of a 616 out of the vault for Delves, but for Mythics? A choice of 3 fucking 606's. I know that when Mythic+ opens up, this will be a non-conversation. But RIGHT NOW - this is all the content available, and it makes no fucking sense.

But the scaling? This shit is awful and a lot of the Delves arent setup for different classes in the least like Wombat said. To do an 8 by myself as a Warlock would be a snooze fest. "Oh no. They nuked my pet to death. Let me insta-cast a new pet and use a health stone to restore 90% of my HP every use. Oh no. Im out of health stones after that last pet death. Let me summon another 3 while in combat and go back to watching youtube." To do an 8 by myself as my shaman, whether thats elemental, enhancement and obviously as a resto - I just dont think it would be very fun or possible in some cases at the item level range we're all at now. Brann is 30 something now, and he's fantastic DPS by himself and with the right, epic tier, curio's - he's a pretty great healer. But he's not bringing the "tank" role to the instance for classes that need that meat shield like my Shaman.

Looking at those number's, the differences I think.. the NPC nukes are doing 20-25% of HP as the role you are. So a Tank, they're guesstimating that you have 8-11 million HP. So 2.5 million sounds roughly right, and to be quite honest - tanks have multiple interrupts so that shouldnt ever be a problem unless you're diving into an entire group of enemies. Which is obviously not what they want people doing. 1.3 million is about right for your average DPS by comparison for 25%. Which makes more sense when they say "606 is the suggested item level for this Delve" because then, they know that you roughly have that amount of HP.

Something I find amusing about Delves, especially in the higher tiers? ... So Juva and I did a tier 9 Delve yesterday. You know what I wanted in our tool kit that neither of us had in the roles/classes we were playing? A long crowd control ability like Sap or Polymorph. You know what would have really helped us with the empowered groups? (Which to be honest, were the only mobs that were even remotely a struggle) A tank. What would have really helped with all those nukes, traps and more? A multi-talented class like the Rogue. The amusing part? After we left, I realized that the Developers were making the higher tiers into an old Dungeon Crawl experience with the most optimum setup of classes being the same ones that you used to tread through the old Dire Maul, Hellfire Ramparts, etc. when they were current. Let me repeat myself "TO MAKE HIGH END DELVES DIFFICULT WITHOUT A TIMER - THEYRE REUSING TACTICS FROM OLD DUNGEONS" ... its fucking stupid and hilarious at the same time.

Shit happens man. You seem to be defeated, mentally, by a few bad come ups. As far as cool downs - use every tool in your box to compensate, at any time. If thats what you're saying, then by all means.. keep at it. It'll get better. You're concentrating on 593 gear, and the rest of us are over here bitching about Delves getting harder because the rewards are way the fuck better, lol. From what I understand, Bellular has some kind of huge mega guild. Theyre all cross server, cross faction, now - so join his and find a crew.


This was one of my bigger complaints back at the start when I was trying to be a completionist. There are quests particular to a zone, that require you to go back and forth between different zones in order to finish up that last particular quest. Like the quest in Dornogal that held me up was the bullshit one with the Magistrate. Where you help the same guy, in disguise, in the Deep, get away from some Nerubians? Kobolds? One of them. Then you meet the same magistrate, again, as himself - as the Embassador for the Earthen, meeting the Hollowfall people and you help negotiate a trade treaty between them. All because Dwarf from the Stonevault was killing every envoy that was sent to them. Then, you have to go back to Dornogal and do a follow up quest to repeat the story line.

That sounds all well and good - but the pain in the ass part? THERE ARE NO BREAD CRUMBS TO PICK UP EACH QUEST. So you have to take every fucking side quest you see and do that. Then there are quest markers that DONT show up on the map until you fly over them with your mount. THEN, on top of that, there are quests that only show up once a refresh. Like the little Commander and her subordinate in Hollowfall right there at all the Mushroom/fungal people in the bottom right of the zone? She has had a new quest multiple times for me. I was thinking it was a daily at first that wasnt marked because the quest.. is roughly the same shit every fucking time. BUT NO - it eventually leads to some quest that is an achievement by itself that isnt involved in the zone completion achievement. Its like someone told the quest designer to make a quest like this, and this was their first time doing it.

But there is an addon that I eventually got that just tracks every single quest. Theres multiple of that type of addon, so whatever you "fancy" as they all ping the database for quest completion and you can turn on what you have and what you dont have.

Click to expand...

Dude of course I'm doing delves, I solo'ed T7 and just don't see the point soloing T8.

Thanks for the Bellular tip though, I will look into that.

Honestly, I think the Devs are too preoccupied/focused with Delves and their appearances at the vendors in town as the reward structure to keep doing them. There should be a vendor in town that sells shit, much like Monster Hunter type games do - where you have bombs, powders, whatever, that are DELVE ONLY - that give your class the ability to do everything that other classes can. A Salve that increases healing taken by 45% that lasts 10 minutes. Or one that decreases damage taken by 20%. A weapon oil that increases your damage by 15-25%. Or a powder bomb that you can throw at a target, Crowd Controlling it for one minute. Or a bomb that is a non-aggro, distraction that draws enemies over to it so you can split pulls. A flamethrower that you can use on demand, like a toy, that clears webs like the action button in some instances. Or for the underwater one, Enduring Breath salve that last for 10 minutes (fucking ADHD ass mechanic.)

The thing is, Ive seen a variant of at least ALL of these dropping from the end chest. Some are incredibly useful like the little lump of fat looking icon one that AOE Dots them for 101k every second over 10 seconds. That one seems like shit, but is actually amazing. But then theres one thats a Living Bomb or some shit, where it might be useful for a melee but not so much to others. But really, I have barely seen ANY utility ones.

Im just saying, they need a vendor where you can BUY all this shit and make the "Delvers" union, or community, whatever they want to call that little enclave - a bit more useful than buying some ugly gear, or acquiring cosmetics for an ugly mount.

Chris said:

Dude of course I'm doing delves, I solo'ed T7 and just don't see the point soloing T8.

Thanks for the Bellular tip though, I will look into that.

Click to expand...

But.. why not do a T8? Thats the proverbial roof of where you should be to get the best gear. T9+ is useless. Duo them with someone, anyone, and you should get them. There are always a pile of people at the entrance to delves looking for someone to duo with.

Daidraco said:

But.. why not do a T8? Thats the proverbial roof of where you should be to get the best gear. T9+ is useless. Duo them with someone, anyone, and you should get them. There are always a pile of people at the entrance to delves looking for someone to duo with.

Click to expand...

I do T8 in a group because it's faster.

I only got trinkets so need Mythic0 so to fill out slots, also want to learn tactics for higher mythics.

I'm just glad I completed 11 achieves and solo achieve on zekvir before they blew it all up, so now I don't have to worry.