EQ Never

tad10_sl said:

But remember the alternative. People focusing on a few classes will have an easier time itemzing for those classes and should "advance" faster.

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Yep. But that too, sounds like Pokemon. (And I'm not saying this to be derogatory, Pokemon would make a great MMO). But if say I built up a "fire" class to Tier 4, and someone else spent their time building two classes, a water and fire to tier 2....Against a "fire elemental", his water would be as effective as my fire, because it's a counter. However, my fire would be better against other things because it's inherently stronger.

And it doesn't have to be reduced down to just elemental types or damage types, range, utility ect could all play a role diversifying your pokemon for specific encounters. The main thing is, you're going to have more tools for specific encounters if you have more "ready to go" options BUT there is also some depth to each option as well. (Your dragon Pokemon works well in a lot of situations, anyway.)

My big concern is that games like Pokemon and League, which use these mechanics, don't rely on an identity in the world. People tend to form identities with their own characters--and that could be problematic with a counter based game. In D3, people hated (Very much) the need to slot specific counters for encounters as they went along, it became annoying and tedious--and I think that had to do a lot with identity. People like feeling attached to a persona--if you're using a Pokemon, it doesn't affect your persona, if you're playing Barbie Dress up to essentially BE a pokemon, well, that does.

If you want to make a Pokemon MMO, make a god damn Pokemon MMO.

Nintendo will never do it but there's already like 4 copies of the idea out there. No reason you can't make another.

Braen_sl said:

Have they said anything about support classes? Like enchanters/CC? Or are we still Tank/Heal/DPS based? with 40+ skills/souls, there is room for utility

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He said you can play however you want, as long as you're doing DPS.

Lithose_sl said:

I think it was how vehement he was with it...If your game is really open, and you have healers, a trinity will probably arise naturally. It might not be the ONLY method, your game might support kiting, walling and various other strategies that bypass the trinity. But saying "NO HEALERS WARBAGABLE!" made it seem like their only plan to end the trinity was to not allow healing classes, which is really dumb.

That and, as said earlier, it sound more personal and less rational than it should have. Some guy had his cleric GF cheat on him and leave with the main tank, and now he hates healers, is what it feels like.

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I think this sums up perfectly their general miss on how they presented everything overall. Coming off as basically saying you shouldn't have enjoyed EQ 1 , (especially your fucking pure boring healers )seems to not be the smartest way to go.

Braen_sl said:

Have they said anything about support classes? Like enchanters/CC? Or are we still Tank/Heal/DPS based? with 40+ skills/souls, there is room for utility

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There is CC in the game and there are 40 classes. So I'll go with likely, but it was not expressly stated there would be mainly-CC classes at any of the panels. Question just never came up. I'd tweet it as Mughul suggested.

Pokemon is not the correct analogy. Think of Diablo 3 where there is no 'endgame' cookie cutter spec but everything is contextual depending on the type of content you want to go after (eg Butcher run, faming, MP10 etc, aoe). Or deck building in MtG. Cookie cutter exists because you have static encounters. Make the encounters dynamic and everything changes. GW2 addressed the symptoms and not the disease making the patient worse.

Now SOE just has to make that fun for us. 'Just'.

" Don't you just hate it when like... You have to work together? I mean that stupid healer is keeping everyone alive, the tank? he's absorbin damage, I mean you don't wanna be stuck in a CC role do you? The DPSers were the only ones having fun, don't you remember?"

Lithose_sl said:

My big concern is that games like Pokemon and League, which use these mechanics, don't rely on an identity in the world. People tend to form identities with their own characters--and that could be problematic with a counter based game. In D3, people hated (Very much) the need to slot specific counters for encounters as they went along, it became annoying and tedious--and I think that had to do a lot with identity. People like feeling attached to a persona--if you're using a Pokemon, it doesn't affect your persona, if you're playing Barbie Dress up to essentially BE a pokemon, well, that does.

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Yep, I agree with this for long term play. It's why I would have preferred EQNext with EQ/VG classes/combat

Dahkoht_sl said:

I think this sums up perfectly their general miss on how they presented everything overall. Coming off as basically saying you shouldn't have enjoyed EQ 1 , (especially your fucking pure boring healers )seems to not be the smartest way to go.

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Yeah, every time someone from the Q and A came and asked about the trinity I kept expecting the guy to flip his shit and lose it...

"You ever see what happens to a guild when some complete healing WHORE leaves? I have, mother fucker. I would have beaten Rathe before either Tigole or Faggot Furor or any of those assholes, if my douche bag main tank hadn't left with that click-stick CUNT I called a wife. WHY DO YOU WANT THAT IN YOUR GUILD...FUCK, God..."


And then sit down and say"So, you know...so we're moving beyond that."

tad10_sl said:

Yep, I agree with this for long term play. It's why I would have preferred EQNext with EQ/VG classes/combat

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Completely agree. The problem that raiding etc is based on roles and if you miss one person you are stuffed or you need to have 1 sitting. You can mitigate the issue with 'game of consequences' they were talking about where the game remembers your actions and responds uniquely thus making a stronger connection compared to every other game out there.

Bruman_sl said:

I think this reveal would've went over a lot better if it didn't have the EverQuest name attached to it.

Nothing I saw at any of the panels made me think "Oh yeah, that's EverQuest right there". I'm not even asking for EQ:HD or anything. But the races don't look like EQ races, the art style was wrong, the locations seemed generic (not that we've seen much beyond concept art), the gameplay is very different...I mean, there's time to turn it all around, since again, the "reveal" was mainly revealing how they don't have anything in-game yet really (other than a couple of models and animations along with Voxel Farm working with Lightforge). But I don't have any hope that it will.

This will still probably be fun for a month or two. But an EverQuest game? Unlikely.

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Was EQ2 an 'Everquest' game? Because there is a good chunk of people who didn't think so when it launched.

you must spread some reputation.... lmao

Yeah I was waiting him to throw a bunch of nagafen hats. His fucking cleric went out for a pack of smokes on Christmas morning and never came back until he saw her screaming down the road in a camero with a MT.

"She left, I mean your healer leaves, and it fucking tears your family, I mean guild, apart. I won't ever, EVER, let anyone go through that pain ever again. AGAIN! YOU FUCKING HEAR ME!?"

*Smooths over his hair, Dave Georgeson fixed his collar*

"We're moving beyond that. Only Rogues had fun, remember?"

Some important things to remember.

* Not being able to raid because you didnt have enough of X class on and waiting/hoping enough clerics log on sucks.

* Tolerating shitty people in guilds or groups just because they play a trinity class sucks.

* Being in a dungeon having a great time killing shit but having to stop because the enchanter/tank/healer has to go out sucks.

* Choosing and investing in a class that has secondary value in groups in raids sucks ("Need DPS, Wiz or Rog ONLY!)


Those things suck in games.. and Trinity preserves them.

Additional note.. if this game didnt have the EQ name on it, and was released by someone else, how many would look at it differently. I imagine if it didnt have the EQ baggage, people would be looking at this game like Jesus.

Lleauaric_sl said:

Some important things to remember.

* Not being able to raid because you didnt have enough of X class on and waiting/hoping enough clerics log on sucks.

* Tolerating shitty people in guilds or groups just because they play a trinity class sucks.

* Being in a dungeon having a great time killing shit but having to stop because the enchanter/tank/healer has to go out sucks.

* Choosing and investing in a class that has secondary value in groups in raids sucks ("Need DPS, Wiz or Rog ONLY!)


Those things suck in games.. and Trinity preserves them.

Additional note.. if this game didnt have the EQ name on it, and was released by someone else, how many would look at it differently. I imagine if it didnt have the EQ baggage, people would be looking at this game like Jesus.

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You nailed it. It's not about removing the trinity. But fixing these issues. But again you can't only fix the player side without fixing the encounter side like GW2 did.

Mughal_sl said:

Pokemon is not the correct analogy. Think of Diablo 3 where there is no 'endgame' cookie cutter spec but everything is contextual depending on the type of content you want to go after (eg Butcher run, faming, MP10 etc, aoe). Or deck building in MtG. Cookie cutter exists because you have static encounters. Make the encounters dynamic and everything changes. GW2 addressed the symptoms and not the disease making the patient worse.

Now SOE just has to make that fun for us. 'Just'.

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Yeah, but the D3 you described is a form of Pokemon--in fact, that's why they added Neph valor, because those comparisons came up. Essentially if I see a row of a specific kind of mobs, and I have a quick swap switch to "summon" a specific build, then what I'm going to do as a player is collect items and weapons to enhance specific builds, and have tons of specific builds ready to go whenever I encounter the mobs they counter.

Much like Pokemon, when you get your ass kicked by a fire type, you go into the world, and build up a water type, and come back and win. And you always have that 'counter" with you. This is what quick swapping classes does, it breeds counter play. And many games can make that fun...It happens in League all the time. There are tons of counter picks, and a team will pick a counter and THEN buy items to further that counter.

In a way, if we talk about it like MTG, it's like bringing tons of decks, and being able to swap them before any game, so if your opponent is using a blue deck in a best of three and your fire deck loses, you can bust out another deck that counters his for the second round.

Some important things to remember.

* You could raid.

* You had to group.

* Working as an organized team in a dungeon, vs zerg dps spam.

* Value and incentive to play a class, and developing class pride.


Those things made up EQ.. and Trinity preserves them.

Additional note.. if this game didnt have the EQ name on it, nobody would be paying attention to it.

Lithose_sl said:

My big concern is that games like Pokemon and League, which use these mechanics, don't rely on an identity in the world.

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Here was a post of mine from Reddit concerning this:

I've been hearing people argue that multi-classing hurts character identity. I don't really understand this argument. I always identify with my main more than any other character. I could level up 6 alts in any other MMO, but I would still consider my main my 'avatar' within the world. The fact that I don't have to sacrifice that personal connection to the world or my personal identity from the eyes of other players on the server if I want to play other class, is amazing to me.

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Tad has already said that becoming the 'best' of a specific class will be difficult and take a lot of work. I think people will still gravitate to the 'roles' they like playing, and try to make a name for themselves as that identity.