EQ Never

Caeden_sl said:

How do you do that without either A. putting no indication of power on gear or B. not having any type of combat log?

Even if you make it non-parseable but have the scrolling text, some nerd will tediously go through it.

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There supposedly isn't any Attributes on gear. There's no +Stronger.

Gear instead affects your abilities, and so it's up to each player to optimize their gear for whatever build they want to play with.

Their example was a Rogue having a Path of Shadows ability (a shadowy teleport). Rogue could use Path of Shadows, but then wouldn't have the resource to us Backstab. The Rogue could fix this with gear though. Their example was a ring which reduced trhe resource cost of Teleport-type abilities. So the ring allowed him to combo his abilities better.

With a gear system like that, it's not immediately clear what gear is stronger or better. It really depends on how your gear affects whatever abilities you chose (with potentially thousands of Class ability combination). And even then, it may not be stronger than a ring that causes Backstabs to also cause the target to bleed for 10% of the damage (my made up example).

People will always try and min-max though, so I'm sure there will be builds that people eventually consider to be optimal. It's really SoE's goal the ensure there isn't one build that is the best in every scenario. Their example was of a regular Warrior or a multiclassed Warrior. A regular Warrior may do decent enough against caster mobs. But, the warrior could multiclass themselves into a Magebane Warrior with a Mana Burn, Spell Reflect, etc. So I guess their goal is for everyone to play the way they want, but for no specific build to excel against every challenge. They seemingly want you and your friends to die against a hard challenge, then have to reconvene and strategize how it can be taken down, what abilities may need to be swapped out, etc.

Big Flex_sl said:

All of it really, and I agree with Freeport. What the fuck if a Tempest and why is it a starting class?

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lightning druid?

Book makers needs to take bets on new games nowdays, so I could place a bet on this sucking or not and see the odds.

Big Flex_sl said:

There are Pointmen, Corpsman (Medics), Comm guys, Machinegunners, Assaultmen etc for a reason in real world infantry squads.

Warrior, Cleric, Utility, DPS

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Yeah, it's obvious to anyone who has actually spent more than two minutes thinking about the paradigm MMO's use. Everything in an MMO is an abstraction, the level of differentiation from real life depends solely on how you want the game to be played. RTS's differ less dramatically than RPG's, because in an RTS you can actually have people die, and need actual supplies--it's more fluid and less attached. RPG's require a deeper level of abstraction because you want actual character attachment.

No one wants to be Riverwind (Or say, Robert Baratheon), so the dragon can't ACTUALLY step on you and one shot you (Or the boar can't rip your guts out in one swing). No one WANTS to be those footman in Return of the King that got crushed by the Trolls, but allowed for flanking archer units to kill them. We want more attachment to characters so we abstract things, which further leads us to abstract other things. The trinity is kind of the "final" layer of the onion--and these guys think peeling JUST that back is some kind of evolution in game play, but the reality is, it will only make them cry.

If the developers aren't willing to dig down and really examine WHY the paradigm exists, what purpose it served and how to translate that purpose into a new paradigm, you're going to end up with a shitty product like GW2.

Dr Ent_sl said:

lightning druid?

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No. It's a leather armor wearing, two-handed sword using, lighting DD class.

Like a EQ1 Berserker with lightning spam.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Lithose again.

fyi the Q&A is absolutely worth watching even if you followed the live tweets

Lithose_sl said:

The trinity is kind of the "final" layer of the onion--and these derps think peeling JUST that back is some kind of evolution in gameplay, but the reality is, it will only make them cry.

If the developers aren't willing to dig down and really examine WHY the paradigm exists, what purpose it served and how to translate that purpose into a new paradigm, you're going to end up with a shitty product like GW2.

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Completely agree. So far I think they've said the right things to make it seem like they 'get it', but we'll have to see if they can actually implement it in a way that actually feels challenging and rewarding for players. You can't just remove the Trinity without greatly changing the way that combat is approached and just flat out operates. If they just try to shoehorn the lack of a Trinity into traditional combat with traditional AI, it will be a huge failure.

Underjoyed_sl said:

this statement really shows the idiocy of people in charge of making modern MMORPGs. MMOs aren't there so you just play with friends. Theyre there for you to meat up and cooperate with complete strangers that, down the road, can become new friends. If all you want to do is play with your current group of 4 friends, play a fucking online game like TF2 or some shit like that. Catering to antisocial assholes is not what an MMO should be about.

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What exactly are you complaining about? That comment can just as easily be talking about you meeting up with 3 fellow adventurers who you don't know to kill a boss and not having a cleric or main tank class amongst you. From the sounds of it you can still tackle the challenge without waiting for one of these classes to show up. In other words play the fucking class that YOU want to play not what is necessary for the group or what others want you to play!

With a game like this that has incited so much uproar. I wonder how they will handle Beta, because there are going to be leaks.

Teekey_sl said:

Completely agree. So far I think they've said the right things to make it seem like they 'get it', but we'll have to see if they can actually implement it in a way that actually feels challenging and rewarding for players.

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Yeah, they have said a few key words that sound like they might get it. From SOME of them, it sounds like they are saying the trinity will be viable if you have the people willing to form a front line, form a support group and tactically plan the battle to make it happen....But they also want to leave it open for a group of Wizards to say, build ice walls and bomb the target (ect). And that's fine, in fact, I really like that kind of openness and freedom in game play. Hey, if you can pull the Dane from his room? Good for you. Exploitation should be looked at as intuitive strategies.

But that relies on an AI that's nearly as smart as a human to deal with...which supposedly they say they have. (in the above case, the Dane would stop, say fuck that, and not follow.)

What I really don't want to see though, are a bunch of mobs who can teleport, summon and auto-path because the AI ended up being normal, combined with the complete lack of support classes in a desperate attempt to slam the round peg into the square hole--because someone got the bright idea that JUST removing healing makes it so trinities won't exist.

There is a lot to be said for trinity being in a game from 1999 and in a game that basically started the genre. It works no doubt but its archaic. The biggest problem is we all cannot imagine an implementation that works because none have yet, that doesn't mean one can't. The game they release could be complete and utter shit or could be the most compelling mmo experience ever. Time will tell.

Grumpus_sl said:

With a game like this that has incited so much uproar. I wonder how they will handle Beta, because there are going to be leaks.

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I don't see it as uproar. Just very healthy interest and discussion, which is good. SoE want's people talking about the game.

Most of us are excited to see what they come up with. We have concerns but until beta happens it is still just speculation.

After catching up and reading everything that has been said, I have to say I'm on the fence maybe a little disappointed. With that said I'm still excited for this and don't think there is anything else on the horizon that I'm looking forward to more.

My biggest gripe is the actiony combat, I just don't see playing for long periods at a time if you have to avoid hits/connect hits/don't step in red circle. Maybe I'm over-thinking it though, there has been quite a few times I would stay up for 24+ hours pulling with my monk or bard non-stop. I have always preferred RPGs with slower tactical combat over the more action oriented ones, but I'm totally in agreement that a change from EQ1 is likely needed. Lets just hope SoE doesn't rape the "emergent" side of it when they see Timmy the druid kiting ice giant 08 so they make it summon, or what have you.

I am totally okay with trying to get away from the need of the "holy trinity", although I would still like that to be a viable option. It would be totally neat if classes fully compliment each other, spells/encounters could be set up with that in mind so something that would need a group would not be solo-able but still may not need tank/healer. No tank ? well charm has a cool down after using it, but group has a necro and an enchanter and its an undead zone so they can alternate charming. No tank/healer? there's enough room to kite but mob runs 200% of your speed and druid snare only slows for 50% so it will still catch up, but wait there's a SK in group and snares from other characters stack.

I'm not too sure how I feel about any class using any other classes ability. It could be pretty cool if it had limits, but I think if it is any class can pick absolutely any skill they learn from whichever class it would feel a bit cheap. Also, maybe it's just me but I like knowing what each class can do... it would be pretty damn hard to lead a group of people when you have no idea which each one is capable of. All-in-all If there has to be a multi-class system at the moment I would have preferred the final fantasy system from the sound of it.

With that said, I still am pretty stoked for this. Hopefully we will get updates at a quick constant rate since reveal and learn more and more about the mechanics of EQN.

I really loved the class selection in DAoC. 45 classes to choose from, 15-16 from each realm. These are full classes, each with 5+ lines to spec in.
For instance, take the "Rogue" archetype. In each realm, there was a different type of rogue with common rogue abilities, but each one also had their own unique abilities. If you played in the magical realm of Hibernia, the rogue class was called Nightshade, a spellcasting rogue. If you played in the viking, melee-heavy realm of Midgard, you were a Shadowblade, with superior burst dps/crit strike on your opening backstab. If you played in the King Arthurian realm of Albion, you were an Infiltrator with superior stealth/sustained dps.
Another example, if you wanted to roll an "Archer" archetype, Midgard's Hunter was the beast master, Albion's Scout was superior in long range attacks and Hibernia's Ranger was superior in self buffs and dual-wielding melee attacks.
Each realm (Midgard, Albion, Hibernia) had one or even two of each archetype:

Heavy tanks (Warrior, Armsman, Hero)
Light tanks (Berserker, Mercenary, Blademaster),
Hybrid fighters (Thane+Valkyrie, Paladin + Reaver, Champion+Vampiir) Mauler (all 3 realms)
Archers (Hunter, Scout, Ranger)
Rogues (Shadowblade, Infiltrator, Nightshade)
Bards (Skald, Minstrel, Bard)
Pure healers (Healer, Cleric, Druid)
Hybrid healers/buffers (Shaman, Friar + Heretic, Warden)
Pure Nukers (Runemaster, Eldritch, Wizard)
Hybrid nukers (Warlock, Theurgist + Sorceror, Bainshee+Mentalist)
Pet nukers (Spiritmaster + Bonedancer, Cabalist + Necromancer, Enchanter + Animist)

I totally envisioned EQN using the same model replacing the 3 realms with the 3 factions (Good, Evil, Neutral).

Azeth_sl said:

fyi the Q&A is absolutely worth watching even if you followed the live tweets

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Was about to say, they actually corner a few questions everyone here were babbling over.

I hope the layers don't turn out to be unmemorable events like the rifts in Rift, which equated to little more than enemy spawn points when the game launched. If most of them are randomly generated, are we just going to fall down a hole, clear out some mobs, and be done? The way they're being described and monitored by SOE, it seems like a similar mechanic (granted the EQN one seems pretty far beyond it as it's more than just enemies falling out of the sky).

Jait_sl said:

Why remake the past? These games aren't obsolete and they're STILL ADDING NEW CONTENT. Go play EQ, EQ2, WoW, etc... Whenever I get the itch, that's exactly what I fucking do, and it's scratched.


Not really sure why people want a remake with a new engine, like that's really possible. Go spend tons of fucking money on an engine so people can say there's no mystery and it's the same ol' game with new graphics.

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Heading out here our my final thoughts on soe live/eqnext. I think soe has missed an opportunity for a hat trick and we, the player base, need to "help" them.

Landmark - awesome for people who love minecraft.
EQN - awesome for mmo pvpers. Dumar and Nirgon will go nuts when soe reveals the game is sullon type pvp.
What's missing us traditional combat and leveling with the new engine and destructible world for mmo pvers. They should have revealed eq3. Same engine. Same world just diku combat mechanics.

that's all landmark is same world but simple combat.

tad10_sl said:

EQN - awesome for mmo pvpers. Dumar and Nirgon will go nuts when soe reveals the game is sullon type pvp.

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wat