NBA 2016-17 Season Thread - Knicks in 6

Pigbenis said:

Cavs are so lol bad right now I can barely fucking stand to watch. They have 0 intensity out there.

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The most mind-blowing stat about this slump I read is that this is LeBron's first double digit loss month since his first month in the league. In November 2003. That's fucking incredible.

For the life of me, I can't understand why OKC hasn't brought in better shooters for Westbrook. McDermott was nice but there's so little three point shooting on that team. Bottom 5 in three point makes and percentage. They really should go to the James Harden model.

Anyone who seriously thinks Harden deserves MVP over Westbrook is crazy

Not really. Westbrook having an impressive finish to the season which may put him over the top, but Harden's overall season resume is still more impressive to me. Also has zero all-star teammates, putting up numbers every bit as crazy as Westbrook while being a much more efficient scorer, and led his team to a significantly better record. One can easily make an argument for Harden over WB.

Don't care who wins. That's going to be a super interesting first round series between those guys though.

Pharazon2 said:

Not really. Westbrook having an impressive finish to the season which may put him over the top, but Harden's overall season resume is still more impressive to me.

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Pharazon2 said:

Not really. Westbrook having an impressive finish to the season which may put him over the top, but Harden's overall season resume is still more impressive to me. Also has zero all-star teammates, putting up numbers every bit as crazy as Westbrook while being a much more efficient scorer, and led his team to a significantly better record. One can easily make an argument for Harden over WB.

Don't care who wins. That's going to be a super interesting first round series between those guys though.

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Have to disagree that Harden's numbers are "every bit as crazy" as Westbrook's, and wonder what other All-Stars you think Westbrook plays with.

He's also at least an average defender while Harden's "defense" is an absolute disgrace.

ALSO has zero-all star teammates. I'm saying that neither guy has a great cast to work with. How are Harden's #'s not every bit as crazy? Because he's not going out of his way to get two extra rebs per game? Their numbers are basically the same except that Westbrook averages two more rebs and Harden averages 0.5 more assists. Westbrook's 2 ppg extra are less than impressive when you look at how much more efficient of a scorer Harden is. Harden's TS% is 61% vs. Westbrook's 53%. Harden is having like a top 10 all time season in TS% amongst guys with at least 30% usage.

For sure Westbrook's defense is better, and one could argue that should be the difference. To me, record should be the difference. Take either guy off their team and that team is battling for the most ping pong balls. But Harden has his team 3rd in the west, would be #1 in the East.

And again, I don't have a problem with anybody voting for WB, but its ridiculous to say anybody who thinks Harden is deserving is crazy.

I think people get so wrapped up in the triple double. If Westbrook averaged 9.3 RPG, I honestly think his MVP support would diminish a lot more than the value of that extra rebound. As Pharazon2 pointed out, Harden is clearly having a better shooting season.

DickTrickle said:

I think people get so wrapped up in the triple double. If Westbrook averaged 9.3 RPG, I honestly think his MVP support would diminish a lot more than the value of that extra rebound. As Pharazon2 pointed out, Harden is clearly having a better shooting season.

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I'd still give the edge statwise to Westbrook, even though Harden's not too far behind.

Disregarding defense like it's no big deal is pretty crazy, though. And if record is such a big deal it should go to Leonard.

Ambiturner said:

I'd still give the edge statwise to Westbrook, even though Harden's not too far behind.

Disregarding defense like it's no big deal is pretty crazy, though. And if record is such a big deal it should go to Leonard.

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I looked into this a little more and the gap between Harden and Westbrook is actually a lot bigger than I thought. I know Harden can be very bad but he's better than he was in his earlier Houston years. I've watched a few OKC games and haven't been impressed at all with Westbrook -- he was gambling too much and not contesting shots. However, maybe those were bad games. His defensive BPM is 4.6 compared to Harden's 1.4 and even his offensive BPM is higher than Harden's. Win shares are a little higher in Harden's favor but I think part of that is that Harden has better shooters. Westbrook's VORP is also much higher. However, some of that may be skewed since Harden is counted as an SG and Westbrook a PG.

There's some other advanced defensive metrics that are either a wash or Westbrook is better so, yeah, I guess that is a decent argument in his corner.

zzeris said:

The problem I have with Harden is he's a foul drawing machine. Without the constant barrage of free points, would he still be considered the same?

James Harden Gets Fouled On 3s More Than Any NBA Team

He's an exceptional talent(especially at drawing fouls), I'm not arguing differently, but he attempts more threes than anyone but Curry. I'd do the same exact thing if I was getting ridiculous fouls for me all the time too. He's smart but I consider a lot of his points to be con-man bonuses.

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I get where you're coming from but I happen to think that drawing fouls is an elite NBA skill, regardless of authenticity of the foul. I think of someone like Al Jefferson and how he was a really talented scorer but for most of his career he was under 4 FTA per game -- it made him less of a threat. It really does cause a lot of pressure on the defense when you get the calls. Harden definitely gets some crazy calls, but so does every superstar. Westbrook is only 0.3 behind him on attempts, so even if Harden is the greatest actor, it's probably not a huge difference overall.

Speaking of Westbrook, kinda feel like he probably wrapped up the MVP today. Late season performance seems to stick in voters' minds and today was a pretty monster game stat-wise and clutch-wise with a 36 foot three at the end to win it (after being down 8 with a minute left).

This stat line amused me:

Brandon Rush, 30 minutes, 0-2 3P, 1 BLK, 1 TO. I feel like that has to be some kind of record for lowest stats for that amount of minutes played.

Cavs look like garbage right now and heading into the playoffs it's the worst possible time to slump. Hopefully they are just in cruise control mode and can turn it back on in the playoffs but I don't see them repeating if they continue to play like they have been. In fact I wouldn't be shocked if they don't even make the Finals right now.

Excellent.

Oblio said:

Cavs are in a rut for sure, but can you really bet against LeBron? On the flip side who are you willing to bet on to beat the Cavs? Boston? Nope. Washington? Nope. Toronto? Nope.

As far as MVP goes if it was a real award it would go to LeBron every year, but we all know how it works just like with Jordan played. Russ should win, if he had a decent shooter on his team he would be leading the league in assists over Harden. Not to mention, Russ actually plays defense. If you think the race is actually as close as some of you say, then let me ask you this...if you were drafting for an expansion team & with your first pick you could take Harden or Russ, who would you pick? To me it is Russ, it is not even close.

Does anyone else that grew up in Jordan era think Russ is the closest thing we have see to Michael since Michael?

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Not a fan of the draft analogy because then you have to take things like youth and injury history into account which shouldn't matter for a single season MVP award. In a draft scenario, I'd easily go Westbrook, Lebron, Durant, Curry, and Leonard (not in any particular order) over Harden.

Harden and Rockets fans claim that "wins" should matter the most in an MVP race. That only works in a vacuum compared to Westbrook, though, and if he actually meant that then he's basically endorsing Kawhi Leonard or any of the Warriors 4 starting All-Stars.

Oblio said:

Russ should win, if he had a decent shooter on his team he would be leading the league in assists over Harden. Not to mention, Russ actually plays defense. If you think the race is actually as close as some of you say, then let me ask you this...if you were drafting for an expansion team & with your first pick you could take Harden or Russ, who would you pick? To me it is Russ, it is not even close.

Does anyone else that grew up in Jordan era think Russ is the closest thing we have see to Michael since Michael?

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You lost me at the Jordan comparison. In terms of being a physically gifted freak guard with a relentless motor, sure. But he's so much less efficient than Jordan. While Westbrook is not the horrible level defender that Harden is, he's not exactly great. I'd call him an average defender honestly. Jordan was an elite defender.

As to who I'd start a team with, its a tough decision. I really don't like either guy's game. I hate Harden's flopping, I hate Westbrook's chucking as an inefficient scorer. I think to decide who you'd draft, you'd have to say "Who would be better on a team with other talented players?" (a situation neither guy is much in now) One could easily make an argument for Harden due to his superior efficiency. When Harden has the ball late in games, I'm much more afraid than if Westbrook has the ball late in a game.

Serious question no trolling:

The Case For LeBron James, MVP

Thoughts on this article from non-Lebron ball swingers?

First let me say I'm fully onboard with Westbrook or Kawhi getting it, no arguments here. I just wonder if LeBron is doing things at 32 that are unprecedented and like the article says people just expect that sort of greatness from him year in and year out.