War with Syria

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Erronius

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Also, the USSR totally slowed the fuck out of Germany and was about to shaman-solo them with DOTs when the rest of the allies showed to get flagged from the kill and see what it dropped. Germany was already at 20%, then America dropped a couple DD nukes, got the killshot then declared that without them, Germany would have totally mopped the floor with the Soviets.
 

fanaskin

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So you say the region is imbalanced by arbitrary boundaries and superpower backing, and your answer to that is a nuclear armed Iran?

Well hell, while we're at it let's just give every questionable regime in unstable areas nukes right? I guess that guns aren't the only GREAT EQUALIZER in your world then are they?
Yes when a balance of power is maintained war is less likely, you may not like nuclear weapons but the Pandora's box has already been opened there is no going back.

It's what prevented america and Russia from engaging in world war 3, would you rather have gone through world war 3? without the deterrence of nuclear weapons world war 3 would most probably have happened already. You are really discounting the concept of detterence.

And nobody is giving anybody anything, if Iran is capable of producing nuclear weapons themselves I wouldn't invade their nation and murder Iranians to prevent that from happening, you keep saying "give nuclear weapons" like america would be rolling around selling surplus nukes4cash

So you say the region is imbalanced by arbitrary boundaries and superpower backing, and your answer to that is a nuclear armed Iran?
I never claimed to be world dictator that could grant things with a magic wand, You have to get over this concept that you can meddle with everybody else's business because: murica. All I said is that if Iran was capable of producing nuclear weapons it would deter Israel and Saudi Arabia from openly war mongering all their neighbors, I mean for gods sake john Kerry openly said that Saudi Arabia would pay for us to war in Syria, what more does it take to realize what's going on in that part of the world.

Afghanistan was on your list of bullied nations, and I threw Uganda in for the lols. That said, what nations would you give nukes to then? What nations do you think would benefit from having nuclear weapons and what regions would this help stabilize?
I wouldn't "give" anyone nukes, if a country is powerful enough to produce it themselves and they aren't raging psychopaths I would treat them respectfully like fellow human beings, I take objection to the constant tone of superiority like we would be giving monkeys handguns, and so would you if somebody else talked about you in that tone. If a country is physically capable of acting like a major power I wouldn't try and do things like starve them to death and kill 500,000 babies like we did with Iraq.

That's pretty damn subjective and subject to abuse. Just using Iran, tons of people would consider Iran acquiring nukes to herald WWIII itself, and I think that it's safe to say that the majority in the West would consider Iranian nukes to be something that would destabilize the region.
a lot of those people are xenophobic war mongers, by "destabalize" what they actually mean is they wouldn't have a free hand to continue to war, rob, steal and cheat arabs, and that would "destabalize" their ability to project power in the region.

Look at list of some of the people you are allying yourself with

george bush
michelle bachman
john mccain
dick cheney
paul wolfawitz
Donald rumsfeld
bill o'reilly

You should really take a hard look at the cheerleaders of the position you are advocating and what their motives in life are.



Yet people and nations tell others what to do on a daily basis, and that balance of power isn't really a balance at all. You yourself started this entire derail by mentioning America as a sole superpower that bullied other nations. You are contradicting yourself.
There is no contradiction, human beings inherently love to judge other human beings, that's why the TV is full of shows of people judging other people, like american idol or Judge Judy, it's just part of human nature. We all try to influence each other as you point out, but there is a big difference between negotiating as equals and invading as a tyrant, what I meant by "telling other people what to do" meant invading another country like Iraq or Afghanistan and then drawing up their constitution for them and telling them literally exactly what to do because we had invaded and taken over their country. there's a big different between invading a country then telling it what to do vs having something like a UN or g20 debate about what to do.

There is no contradiction with that clarification, I'm saying that when the soviet union collapsed there wasn't another power to keep america in check and america started acting more nakedly imperialistic by directly invading countries and compelling them directly what to do vs less invasive means of persuasion, there's no contradiction there.


I wouldn't claim that America has acted responsibly, I'm somewhat mixed on that. That said, I don't think the answer is to let questionable regimes arm themselves with WMD as a way to counter America.
should the soviet union have acquired the bomb ~1950 or should America have been the lone power to have it? how do you think world history would have played out if nobody else besides America had developed the bomb? I can say with almost a certainty that America would have been greatly tempted to drop nukes on another country by now. who would have been able to stop us?

If you really want peace and an end to America acting unilaterally, then hope and pray for the UN and UNSC to either be fixed or ended, and the International community to step up. The reason that America tends to go all "cowboy" is that the UN is a worthless body of drooling idiots that sits back and whines and waits FOR America to act unilaterally first.
You're not asking yourself WHY that is though, the reason the UN bows to the united states is because the UN has no power of it's own, it has no army of it's own and it physically has no way to COMPELL the united states. It's as simple as that, as long as the United states has the military and economic ability to ignore the united nations when it wishes, that is EXACTLY what will continue happening, This concept that you can change the nature of man is a false one, the history of the last few thousand years show this quite clearly that you



That's a terrible litmus test, especially since you're aware, I'm sure, that for most of that 200 year period they were resisting colonization.
Reserved for future researched opinion



It wasn't propaganda, the very article YOU LINKED went into enough depth that you should have been able to see that it wasn't propaganda at all.
Reserved for future researched opinion
 

fanaskin

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Just using Iran, tons of people would consider Iran acquiring nukes to herald WWIII itself, and I think that it's safe to say that the majority in the West would consider Iranian nukes to be something that would destabilize the region.
In my opinion the "tons of people" are the hawks and warmongers in government whose ideas are being being propagated by main stream media and then it reverberates within the plebian population. The vast majority of which are so retarded about history and current events they probably couldn't point to Iran on the map. I mean a man running for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATESdidn't know Iran touched the ocean FFS, do you really think Americans in general really care about other people in other countries? They literally are just parroting the shit they heard on CNN that people like john mcCain and michelle bachman says.

Rand Corporation

Iran After the Bomb
How Would a Nuclear-Armed Tehran Behave?


This report explores how a nuclear-armed Iran would behave, if it would act aggressively, and what this would entail for the United States and its main regional allies, including the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) and Israel. The Islamic Republic seeks to undermine what it perceives to be the American-dominated order in the Middle East and to deter a U.S. and/or Israeli military attack, but it does not have territorial ambitions and does not seek to invade, conquer, or occupy other nations. Nuclear arms are unlikely to change its fundamental interests and strategies. Rather, they would probably reinforce Iran's traditional national security objectives. The ideological beliefs of the Iranian political elite will not shape the country's nuclear decision making. The regional geopolitical environment and Iran's political, military, and economic capabilities will have a greater bearing on Iranian calculations.It is very unlikely that Iran would use nuclear weapons against another Muslim state or against Israel, given the latter's overwhelming conventional and nuclear military superiority. Further, the Iranian government does not use terrorism for ideological reasons. Instead, Iran's support for terrorism is motivated by cost and benefit calculations, with the aims of maintaining deterrence and preserving or expanding its influence in the Middle East. An inadvertent or accidental nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran is a dangerous possibility, but there is not much evidence to suggest that rogue elements could have easy access to Iranian nuclear weapons.
Bush scared the shit out of Iran even as they tried to cooperate alot after 9/11

in the face of U.S. power when Iraq could barely make a dent in the American juggernaut? Subsequent U.S. air operations, such as air strikes against Serbian forces in 1995 and 1999, may have also reinforced Iran's military insecurities. But it was the 2001 U.S. invasion of Afghanistan and the 2003 overthrow of Saddam Hussein that may have truly increased the perceived value of a nuclear deterrent for the Islamic Republic. In those conflicts, the United States not only used its superior military forces to defeat its adversaries on the battlefield, it effectively achieved regime change in both countries. American forces surrounded Iran on all sides. Moreover, the George W. Bush administration appeared to adopt a policy of regime change in Iran; Bush's 2002 branding of Iran as a member of the "axis of evil" made Tehran more apprehensive than ever before (Heradstveit and Bonham, 2007).The Islamic Republic had actually taken a number of steps to ease tensions with the United States after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks and the U.S. occupation of Afghanistan. The government of President Mohammad Khatami was especially cooperative in helping the United States establish a new Afghan government under President Hamid Karzai, and it also offered cooperation in the immediate aftermath of the U.S. invasion of Iraq (Dobbins, 2007). Moreover, the U.S. 2007 National Intelligence Estimate on Iran indicated that Tehran had halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003, perhaps due to fear of a U.S. invasion (Albright and Brannan, 2012). However, the Bush administration's hostile posture toward Iran, including its refusal to "speak with evil" ("Washington Rejected Iranian Concessions," 2007), appears to have soured Khamenei's view of engagement with the United States. The experience may have proven to Khamenei that "resistance" was the best means of dealing with the "great Satan" (Hafezi and Kalantari, 2012; Sadjadpour, 2008). Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's election as president in 2005 subsequently led to more-hardline and less-flexible policies, especially concerning the nuclear program. It is not entirely clear how Iran's experience at that time contributed to its nuclear decision making. The U.S. intelligence community judges that the Iranian government has not made the decision to build nuclear weapons (Clapper, 2012). Nevertheless, it appears intent on developing the know-how and the infrastructure for a nuclear weapons capability. Tehran's decision to do so may have been shaped by Khamenei's belief in resisting the United States in the face of persistent pressures. Moreover, U.S. and Israeli threats to keep the "all options on the table," including military strikes against Iran ("Obama Says Considering All Options," 2011), may have even increased the Iranian government's incentives to seek a potential nuclear weapons capability. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei appears to believe that U.S. opposition to the Islamic Republic is enduring and ideologically motivated. Even if Iran desired a diplomatic agreement with the United States, it might be reluctant to completely give up the option of having some kind of nuclear weapons deterrent, especially given the U.S. success in overthrowing Muslim regimes (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya) through military force.The overthrow of Libyan strongman Mouammar Qadafi and Western opposition to the Syrian regime, Iran's closest ally in region, may have added to Iran's reluctance to compromise on the nuclear program. In his remarks regarding U.S. and NATO operations against Qadafi and the Libyan dictator's decision to give up his nascent nuclear program prior to his overthrow, Ayatollah Khamenei stated, "This gentleman wrapped up all his nuclear facilities,

As Bruce Riedel (2013) notes:
Almost any Iranian national security advisor would probably argue that a nuclear weapons capability is the only guarantor of independence and deterrence. Clearly Iran lives in a dangerous neighborhood, surrounded by many enemies prepared to act against it. So how could Iran prevent them from taking military action? The track record of the past decade is clear. If you have nuclear weapons, you have deterrence. Pakistan has them and, they deter India. Afghanistan and Iraq did not, and America invaded. Libya gave up its nuclear capability and was invaded.
 

Sebudai

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I'm pro 2nd amendment, but... guns don't make people equal, fanaskin.

How's all ya'lls personal FDAs coming along?
 

fanaskin

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guns don't make people equal, fanaskin.
explain and don't be pedantic about it, of course I mean broadly, like it very broadly normalizes interaction, it wouldn't really matter if you're 6"4 or 5"1 anymore, 22 or 52, 110 lbs or 280 lbs as long as you are relativly healthy how does it not equalize the relative power between 2 parties VS ANY OTHER ALTERNATIVE?

Describe an ALTERNATIVE situation that would balance the defensive capabilities weaker people.

And if you're gonna pick the biggest outlier you can don't stop at a 90 year old man, how about a quadriplegic with no eye's while your at it.
 

Sebudai

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Why wouldn't I want to be pedantic in this case? The whole assertion is pedantic.

It hinges on the assumption that the skill variance among people for shooting a gun is smaller than the variance for height or other characteristics. I have no idea if that's true. Do you? If two people are fighting, and they each have a gun, they arenotequal. That seems obvious on its face.
 

fanaskin

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Why wouldn't I want to be pedantic in this case? The whole assertion is pedantic.

It hinges on the assumption that the skill variance among people for shooting a gun is smaller than the variance for height or other characteristics. I have no idea if that's true. Do you? If two people are fighting, and they each have a gun, they arenotequal. That seems obvious on its face.
The way I perceive it is VERY broad concept, like the number of incidents occurred on the scale of a nation.

Like for instance, the fact that you won't be able to dictate the weapon that will be used against you, maybe it's a pair of hands, maybe it's a knife, maybe it's a gun.

I don't see how that variance you described would be any MORE than physical ones

The argument I've always made is that there is a large segment of people like single woman, the older people, fatter people ect they would automatically lose physical engagements so in that scenario they would automatically gain a better percentage chance vs an auto loss. Also I imagine the most likely thing is criminals will have SOME kind of weapon on them, you're going to have to protect yourself somehow, there's a very involuntary nature about being robbed/attacked/murdered/raped. I think a rape whistle is kind of an unsatisfactory alternative most of the time.

also noted no better alternative for individuals is described.
 

Namon

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He deserves it. This whole thing is absurd. The place I ate lunch at yesterday had CNN on a TV and all they did was show video of kids that were starving (it was awful and during lunch?), and how the people suffering the most in this whole thing are kids. Ok that is most likely true, but how in the world would lobbing bombs and sending troops to destroy what little there is left help their situation at all? In fact, I believe it would only get worse.

Look, I will openly admit that I was one of those "neo cons" that was all about the Iraq/Afghanistan invasions, because I naively thought that was how you brought democracy to oppressed people. I want every single person on this planet to enjoy the same liberty and rights that I enjoy. However, what I have learned is meddling with that using military might has never produced a freer society. It has just replaced one tyrant with another and most times the situation ends up worse than better. That region is even worse, because the vast majority of the people there are fundamentally religious and want their society governed by those beliefs. That is inherently oppressive to begin with, so most of the battle for democracy is lost already before the first bullet is fired. I look at Libya and Egypt, and while both of those were able to overthrow extremely evil regimes, the fact of the matter is, those regions are even less stable now. And here we are, wanting to march in and blow up even more people in the process. And this situation is even more precarious due to Russia having Syria's back. Not only are we going to make the lives of those we are claiming to want to help worse, we are also on the verge of aggroing a much more powerful nation in the process.

I think it's high time we got out of the region all together, and let the chips fall where they may, and just make sure our cities and people are protected. And just pray/hope that progress makes its inevitable march to liberty much sooner rather than later.
 

Sebudai

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The more I learn about this situation the more I oppose the rebels. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
 

Picasso3

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You equalize by giving nukes. Which inherently means to create equalization everyone must have nukes to be stable and not get "bullied". But we don't give a shit because we have anti missile. Still equal? You want to escalate the world to a point where it can easily blow itself up when there's still extremists very capable of coups in these shitholes? Stop writing all this shit you're retarded.
 

Sebudai

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You equalize by giving nukes. Which inherently means to create equalization everyone must have nukes to be stable and not get "bullied". But we don't give a shit because we have anti missile. Still equal? You want to escalate the world to a point where it can easily blow itself up when there's still extremists very capable of coups in these shitholes? Stop writing all this shit you're retarded.
My Wakandan.
 

Erronius

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Look at list of some of the people you are allying yourself with

george bush
michelle bachman
john mccain
dick cheney
paul wolfawitz
Donald rumsfeld
bill o'reilly
So let me get this straight...I point out how the metric you defined could be abused due to subjectivity, and in your mind that makes me an "ally" of the people on this list? Are you high?

You should really take a hard look at the cheerleaders of the position you are advocating and what their motives in life are.
Same as the above, LOL. Do you even know what position I'd advocate if I were to lay my positions out?


In my opinion the "tons of people" are the hawks and warmongers in government whose ideas are being being propagated by main stream media
cantexplain.gif
 

Merlin_sl

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The Obama administration is making an all-out effort to win Americans' support for a military strike against Syria ahead of the president's scheduled Oval Office speech on Tuesday.

Read more:
rrr_img_2013.jpg
 

Erronius

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Big Err you should settle for making one cogent point that humiliates fanaskin instead of making a host of sarcastic responses that don't really lead anywhere.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/pol...ng-cong,33752/
Once again we see the tyranny of the Mods, demanding that I make short posts that are to the point, disregarding my long held tradition of making long rambling posts for my own amusement.

Fanaskin, I must apologize to you, for after pondering your words last night I realized that you were right. Indeed, not only do we need to arm everyone with guns, but I will posit that everyone on Rerolled must be given Mod status as well. Thusly will we all then be EQUAL and the Mods will no longer be able to bully the weak amongst us. I can only blame myself for not seeing this sooner, for had I done so I may have been able to prevent the great injustices that befell such men as Araysar.

Araysar, please forgive me.

http://www.rerolled.org/showthread.p...000#post356000
 

zzeris

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You equalize by giving nukes. Which inherently means to create equalization everyone must have nukes to be stable and not get "bullied". But we don't give a shit because we have anti missile. Still equal? You want to escalate the world to a point where it can easily blow itself up when there's still extremists very capable of coups in these shitholes? Stop writing all this shit you're retarded.
Hell yeah! Exactly! Why allow countries in one of the most unstable areas in the world nukes? Who wants equality in a region where religion holds uneven sway? These people even hate their religious brothers over some stupid schism of the faith. Why give these people the ultimate weapon? Nothing says hate faster than religion. Nothing smells out stupid faster than Merlin...why u late bro?