War with Syria

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Siddar

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Please expand on this more fully.
Your own fucking post you motherfucking idiot

Ship's identification known during attack: A James Bamford book,[101] published in 2001, said that secret NSA intercepts recorded by an American EC-121 reconnaissance aircraft indicate that Israeli pilots had full knowledge they were attacking a U.S. vessel.[102] This 2001 proposition has played a significant role in the ongoing controversies about the incident, and continues to be widely cited. The tapes were later released by the National Security Agency in 2003 as a result of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit brought by Judge and author A. Jay Cristol. However, instead of the EC-121 attack tapes requested by the FOIA request, the tapes released contained post-attack communications of Israeli helicopter pilots, their ground controller, and someone on one of the torpedo boats. The helicopters were sent to the attack site to provide assistance after the air attack. The helicopter pilots noticed an American flag flying from the ship almost immediately upon their arrival at the attack site[103] and informed their controller. See other sources for a link to the NSA website with complete transcripts.The NSA Website denies that there are any U.S. recordings of the attack itself; although, this is disputed by several intelligence specialists who say they read the original transcripts.[citation needed]
 

Loser Araysar

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Holy shit, NSA denies that it records people! Stop the presses! And it dragged FOIA requests out for years too!
 

hodj

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http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/15/lie...s-and-the-nsa/

Today the Washington Post reported documents demonstrating that the NSA breaks privacy laws "thousands of times" each year.

Consider this the conclusion of what was the last-ditch argument put forth to defend the NSA: Yes, they have the capability to abrogate your Constitutional rights, but there is no evidence of abuse! Wrong. We now have proof that the NSA both wittingly and unwittingly breaks that law on average of 7.6 times per day, using leaked 2012 numbers.

That's a nontrivial number of infractions.

Let's tease our way through the path to today. The story broke that the NSA collected metadata on phone records of Americans. This proved James Clapper, Director of National Intelligence, a liar to more than the American people, but also to its Congress.

Leaker Edward Snowden then said that, with a mere email address, he could access the content of that account. He was mocked by Rep. Mike Rogers, who said that Snowden "was lying. [...] It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."

But then news of the XKeyscore program came out. And former NSA Director General Hayden confirmed its existence. Oops.

The President said that no abuse was ongoing:

What you're hearing about is the prospect that these could be abused. Now part of the reason they're not abused is because they're - these checks are in place, and those abuses would be against the law and would be against the orders of the FISC.

Well, that's not true either. The Post's report is utterly damning. A few excerpts for flavor:

They [infractions that broke the law] range from significant violations of law to typographical errors that resulted in unintended interception of U.S. e-mails and telephone calls. [...] In one instance, the NSA decided that it need not report the unintended surveillance of Americans. [...]

Despite the quadrupling of the NSA's oversight staff after a series of significant violations in 2009, the rate of infractions increased throughout 2011 and early 2012. [...]

James R. Clapper Jr., the director of national intelligence, has acknowledged that the court found the NSA in breach of the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, but the Obama administration has fought a Freedom of Information lawsuit that seeks the opinion.

Generally, the NSA reveals nothing in public about its errors and infractions.

It gets worse. The Post spoke to members of the government close to the situation who stated that the above figures only count infractions recorded at the NSA's headquarters, and other Washington facilities. So, the tally and examples do not take into account the abuses of the private data of United States citizens by other parts of the NSA.

In short, the above is therefore but foretaste to the real feast of abuse that is ongoing, day in, and day out.

Another point: The Post's documents directly corroborate the story that the NSA is directly tapping the fiber cables of the Internet. Calling it the "one of the most serious violations," the Post states that the National Security Agency "diverted large volumes of international data passing through fiber-optic cables in the United States" to its data centers. The data was then up for analysis. We knew this was happening, but it's nice to have yet another confirmation of the information.

At every turn the NSA has lied and obfuscated. It has dodged, and later been forced to correct the record. Again, and again.

There has been a steady drumbeat of bullshit from those unconcerned with privacy. What was once perhaps dismissed as speculation and intrigue is now confirmed. The Post clutches this:

In a statement in response to questions for this article, the NSA said it attempts to identify problems "at the earliest possible moment, implement mitigation measures wherever possible, and drive the numbers down." The government was made aware of The Post's intention to publish the documents that accompany this article online.

So, the Post in short showed the government proof that it had been lying, and was given a statement that essentially read "yes, but."

Well I won't "yes, but" my right to privacy and the Fourth Amendment. I thank the damn stars that at a minimum - for now, unless you are Lavabit - most of us still enjoy our First Amendment rights to shout that the government shouldn't take apart other parts of the Bill of Rights.

One final caveat to all of this. There exists an argument that for our well-being, the government must at all costs protect the safety of its citizens. Under this argument, physical security is the first, and primary goal of government.

Bullshit. The first goal of the government must be to protect the rights of its citizenry. This fact is simple to prove: The United States is more than willing to expend the lives of its youth and the treasure of its coffers to stand up for the fundamental rights of the American individual. Therefore, rights matter more than physical security. I find it odd that I have to say this out loud.

So we should stand by that, and realize that the price that we pay for the right to privacy is that the government simply will not have as much data as it otherwise might. I am willing to live slightly less physically safe to be far, far more free. And I suspect the same of you.

Stand up.
Lol
 

hodj

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Learned a new word today. This was a very confusing wikipedia article =\

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysphemism
Its just the reverse of a euphemism. So if you frame a discussion in terms that are favorable, that's fallacious, as well, slanting a discussion into terms which are implicitly negative is also the same.

"Don't listen to Tom, he's a faggot" <- dysphemism
"Dude, Tom has straight A's in every class, he's right about everything" <-Euphemism

Both fallacies.
 

Loser Araysar

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Says my source is not credible, cites NSA in turn as his own source.

sunny-donkeybrained.jpg
 

hodj

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So if the NSA says it on the internet, believe it, but if a dude who was actually there writes a book and creates an entire organization about the event, while serving a lifetime as a career Naval officer, he's a crack pot.

Gotcha.
 

Loser Araysar

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That NSA lies doesn't mean everything you read on internet is the truth.
Yet, your proof comes from the internet. NSA's website to be exact.

That's OK, my source is actually a book that's been in print for 40 years from one of the biggest publishers in the world: Random House and has been reprinted 11 times already.

512hjzrh1LL._SY346_PJlook-inside-v2,TopRight,1,0_SH20_.jpg


But I guess we can't trust any books, either, right? Only NSA's website?
 

Siddar

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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Says my source is not credible, cites NSA in turn as his own source.

sunny-donkeybrained.jpg
No I'm saying your source is a nutcase and if you want to make your case find another source.

I have zero obligation to disprove your statements given the basic reality that you have nothing but a nutcase to support it.
 

Loser Araysar

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I dont need to find another source. You're simply trying to slander mine with zero basis or proof despite the fact that my source is a career naval officer who has achieved the rank of Lieutenant COmmander in the US navy, has been decorated, and present in person at the incident in question.

Was your source present at the incident?

Do you even have a source?
 

fanaskin

Well known agitator
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on top of the fact that i've linked like 10+ other witnesses. it's more than just ONE witness.
 

Loser Araysar

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Yes, he published a book about it. He was also there in person and he retired with a rank of lieutenant commander and had been decorated before. All hallmarks of a liar I am sure.
 

hodj

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His credibility is far greater than the NSA, he was there, and served his country with honor, unlike every person who ever worked for the NSA.
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
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on top of the fact that i've linked like 10+ other witnesses. it's more than just ONE witness.
Tragedies like this always spawn conspiracy theories. No one wants to believe their friends died due to a mistake. People naturally want to blame it on some evil person or conspiracy.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
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on top of the fact that i've linked like 10+ other witnesses. it's more than just ONE witness.
Yeah, there's shit tons of other evidence, Siddar was just fixated on what Ennes said about the bullpup missiles.

Lets take a look at others.

Distinctiveness of USS Liberty's appearance: One major dispute is whether the Liberty would have been immediately recognized as a different ship from the Egyptian ship El Quseir. Admiral Tom Moorer stated that the Liberty was the most identifiable ship in the U.S. Navy and in an interview with the Washington Post stated: To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument. Israel states in its inquiry and history reports that the identification as the El Quseir was made by the torpedo boats while the Liberty was enveloped in smoke and was based on "The Red Book", a guide to Arab fleets that did not include U.S. vessels.(Web site with images of both ships)

--

Visibility of American flag: The official Israeli reports say that the reconnaissance and fighter aircraft pilots, and the torpedo boat captains did not see any flag on Liberty. Official American reports say that the Liberty was flying her American flag before, during and after the attack. The only exception being a brief period in which one flag had been shot down and then replaced with a larger flag that measured approximately 13 ft (4.0 m) long. U.S. Naval Court of Inquiry finding number 2 states: "The calm conditions and slow speed of the ship may well have made the American flag difficult to identify." And finding number 28 states: "Flat, calm conditions and the slow five knot patrol speed of LIBERTY in forenoon when she was being looked over initially may well have produced insufficient wind for steaming colors enough to be seen by pilots".[99] The NSA History Report (page 41) states: "... every official interview of numerous Liberty crewmen gave consistent evidence that indeed the Liberty was flying an American flag-and, further, the weather conditions were ideal to ensure its easy observance and identification."

--

Effort for identification: The American crew says the attacking aircraft did not make identification runs over Liberty, but rather began to strafe immediately. Israel says several identification passes were made. The Naval Court of Enquiry, based on the Israeli timeline of events, found "One may infer from the fact that within a period of approximately 15 minutes, the request was transmitted (for aircraft to be dispatched), received, a command decision made, aircraft dispatched, and the attack launched, that no significant time was expended in an effort to identify the ship from the air before the attack was launched."[104]

--

Israeli ships' actions after the torpedo hit: Officers and men of Liberty say that after the torpedo attack and the abandon ship order, motor torpedo boats strafed the ship's topside with automatic gunfire preventing men from escaping from below, and either machine-gunned or confiscated the empty life rafts that had been set afloat.[108][109] The IDF says that Liberty was not fired upon after the torpedo attack and that a rescue raft was fished from the water while searching for survivors.[110]



Are we really to believe that every single one of all those US servicemen are liars or that they are misrepresenting the events while the Israeli version of events is the correct one? Hundreds of trained, professional US sailors all wrong about whether they were flying the US flag? Or that Israelis kept strafing them as they tried to abandon ship?
 

Zhaun_sl

shitlord
2,568
2
We had a thread on FoH about the USS Liberty. I specifically remember reading in several places and watching in a few videos government and navy people at the time saying that nuclear armed aircraft from the US Fleet were ready to go nuke Cairo when the USS Liberty was sunk, initially thinking it was a preemptive Egyptian attack. The thinking being at the time this was just another USA vs. USSR proxy war in the larger Cold War.

No one who was on board that ship and lived believed (or does believe as a few still live I think) that it was an accident. They reported the planes being way to close to be unable to see the US flag flying and small Israeli patrol boats getting close enough to engage them with automatic weapon fire to shoot up life rafts as they were being deployed. So... yeah.
 

Siddar

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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So if the NSA says it on the internet, believe it, but if a dude who was actually there writes a book and creates an entire organization about the event, while serving a lifetime as a career Naval officer, he's a crack pot.

Gotcha.
He was not on the plane that he claims made the recording. The NSA says the plane didn't make any recordings. Personally given the choices given I'm supposed to believe claims of a nutcases who originally claimed US was about to nuke Egypt in 1967 over a government agency that has a history of lying. I come the view that the claims being made are not provable and is also being made by a nutcase. If I were to except this claims as being true then I would have to be willing to consider other completely unproven claims that lack any proof to them being factual. You can disregard the complete lack of evidence to support claims being made if you want but don't expect others to follow along.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
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But but he published a book so it must be true.

Imagine how credible Araysar would find it if theypublished a movie series about it!
I didnt realize that Loose Change was made by a highly credible and decorated Naval veteran who had achieved the rank of Lieutenant Commander and was present at World Trade Center and the Pentagon during the events in question.