Weight Loss Thread
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Adebisi
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Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
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In before "Keto is outstanding, they were using ketogenic diets to help cure forms of epilepsy in the 20s!" The fact that dude is -only- at 9.5 weeks of being ketogenic says volumes about him as a person. Anybody trying for gains while in actual ketosis is just doing shit backwards.
Khane
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There are morons who don't understand what they're actually supposed to be doing in every facet of life. Drinking oil is ridiculous.
So I got a rumble roller and lacrosse ball and have been rolling out my shoulders with them. It's horrific and amazing at the same time.
So I got a rumble roller and lacrosse ball and have been rolling out my shoulders with them. It's horrific and amazing at the same time.
Khane
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Wrong and I am living proof. Until about 2 weeks ago I was in and out of Ketosis (mostly in ketosis during the week and out of it on the weekends, what many people call carb cycling though not quite at the level of detail most other people put into it). I lost 10 lbs and lifts gained massively. Of course I'm not a newbie and was just realizing my potential again after ~5 years of not really being able to hit the gym hard.
Numbers ~10 weeks ago:
Bench 3RM: 210
Deadlift 3RM: 275
Squat 3RM: 195
OHP 3RM: 130
Numbers this week(all 3 RM):
Bench: 270
Deadlift: 335
Squat: 285
OHP: 190
My squats and deads are pathetic in comparison to bench and OHP. When I was heavy into lifting I concentrated a lot more on those and it still shows. I'm trying not to be such a filthy casual about leg day, progress is being made. This is all while losing 10 lbs (200 -> 190)
Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Since I was directly referencing that guy, pretty sure I'm not wrong.
Being in ketosis, however, is definitely taking the long and unnecessary road to trying to improve strength. I would posit that you would have probably lost the same amount of weight and probably had larger gains in strength had you not been in ketosis during that period. But that's a conversation that we're simply not going to agree on, just like science hasn't agreed on the long term benefits/dangers of being in ketosis. You're on the low/no carb bandwagon, and that's fine.
Being in ketosis, however, is definitely taking the long and unnecessary road to trying to improve strength. I would posit that you would have probably lost the same amount of weight and probably had larger gains in strength had you not been in ketosis during that period. But that's a conversation that we're simply not going to agree on, just like science hasn't agreed on the long term benefits/dangers of being in ketosis. You're on the low/no carb bandwagon, and that's fine.
Khane
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Adebisi
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Khane
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Rezz
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Being in ketosis is inherently catabolic, and no matter how efficient the body can be trained to use fats vs. glucose, glucose is a superior fuel source. Glycogen in the muscles is directly related to how much "work" the muscles can do, and the amount of work muscles do is directly related to how they grow and strength is acquired. No matter the ketone levels or the body's adjustment, glycogen is simply going to get you further on much less, leading to more strength gains.
If you are carb cycling, you aren't on a "real" ketogenic diet, especially because odds are you are losing all the subjective benefits while the body readjusts to the ketosis state after coming out of it, which usually takes a couple of days. You might be the anomaly that eats carbs on weekends and then goes right back into ketosis monday morning, but for the vast majority of the world, that's not a thing. Even straight fasting takes 24-48 hours at a minimum, so you're only really in ketosis 3-4 days out of the week anyway, if you are cycling carbs every 5-6 days.
Anyway, a normal diet that contains carbs will lead to superior strength gain. If the goal is strength (like mr. 4000 calorie oil drinker up there) then ketosis is not an efficient way to do it. Can you make progress? Yeah, especially if you are effectively knocking the rust off after a couple of years out from lifting. But it is 100% not the best way to go about it, hence my statement of the road being long and unnecessary.
The more I read about ketogenic diets, the more I'm convinced they're a stupid fad. Used for treatment of very specific medical disorders? YES! But for anyone approaching normal, they are roughly as much benefit as they are detriment. You might be the anomaly, I don't know.
Khane
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Ketogenic Diet (high-fat, low-carb) Has Neuroprotective and Disease-modifying Effects -- Health Wellness -- Sott.net
You're anti low carb Rezz. That's fine. Just realize you're exactly the same as Himeo just a different side of the coin.
Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
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No, I'm anti diets that don't take a balanced approach to weight loss and health. Low carb's benefits kind of turn into a wash after the body adjusts to it, and ketosis is great for specific medical conditions. But, the whole reason this came up was strength and gains. And ketosis is not a good state to be in for that. Like I said, you can make progress while in ketosis, but it will not be as efficient (hence long and unnecessary road) as being in a diet that contains adequate carbs and the body isn't actively attempting to use non-sugar resources for fuel while lifting.
Khane
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You've yet to prove that to me. Yet I link actual studies that refute your claims:
DEFINE_ME_WA
It's becoming very clear you don't fully understand low carb diets. And I am not talking about staying in ketosis for extended periods. Low carb diets, such as Atkins, also do not advocate staying in ketosis past a certain point. If you bothered to look at phase 4 of Atkins you'd see that, but all you concentrate on is phase 1, which is a ketogenic phase for severely obese people. Phase 3 and 4 are phases for moderate weight individuals looking to get healthier.
Whole grains, all fruits and veggies, protein and healthy fats. A fairly normal diet that just eliminates processed carbs that you shouldn't eat no matter what and things like enriched, refined flour instead pushing for bread and pasta made from actual whole grains and rice with lower glycemic index like basmati.
Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Wait why are we talking about Atkins? I was talking specifically ketogenic diets, and I specifically referenced strength gains. And literally nothing you've linked has refuted that you have lower strength and muscle mass gains while on a ketogenic diet than on a balanced diet containing carbohydrates. And as to my "claims" about low carb, I already linked studies that say it's a wash in the long run between those and more balanced diets, or even heavier carb diets.Effects of 4 weight-loss diets differing in fat, protein, and carbohydrate on fat mass, lean mass, visceral adipose tissue, and hepatic fat: result... - PubMed - NCBI
Effect of diet composition and weight loss on resting energy expenditure in the POUNDS LOST study
Which uh, those studies directly reference my "claims" as you like to refer to them. I'm claiming that when it comes to dieting, no matter which one you choose it will probably be effective if you stick with it, and in the long run there's really no difference between various low carb/medium carb/whatever carb diets that have a modicum of balance to them. And if you are arguing that a carb deficient diet is better than one that contains carbs for increasing strength? Please link the study that pushes that angle. It's ok, I'll wait.
Effect of diet composition and weight loss on resting energy expenditure in the POUNDS LOST study
Which uh, those studies directly reference my "claims" as you like to refer to them. I'm claiming that when it comes to dieting, no matter which one you choose it will probably be effective if you stick with it, and in the long run there's really no difference between various low carb/medium carb/whatever carb diets that have a modicum of balance to them. And if you are arguing that a carb deficient diet is better than one that contains carbs for increasing strength? Please link the study that pushes that angle. It's ok, I'll wait.
Fifey
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Frenzied Wombat
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Just get ephedrine (not pseudoephedrine) from behind the pharmacy counter (Bronkaid) and take 3 pills and you'll have zero appetite for about ten hours at least. About fifteen years ago ephedrine used to be the primary component in most workout supplements and I used to take them pre-gym for the crazy energy they'd give me, but one of the side effects was having zero appetite.
Khane
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Ok we agree. And I already did link the study that says that a low carb diet effects lean mass gain better than a high carb diet. I linked it twice in fact, once to the full text and once to the abstract.
By the way I think that both ways will work but you were demonizing low carb as a fruitless endeavor and unhealthy to boot. You've changed you're story a bit in this last post. If you pay attention to my posting history in this thread I have never tried to claim there is only one way to do things nor have I ever said low carb is the only method or even best method. It's my preferred method and I defend it when people attack it. That's all.
Everything in nutritional science changes on nearly a daily basis. For every one study that "proves" the body works one way you'll find another that "proves" it works another. I'm sorry but there is no way that if I have the resolve, discipline and will to hit the gym hard and stick with a healthy eating regiment, no matter what it is, I'm eating enough calories for energy and getting enough sleep that I am not going to progress. Pretending that because I ate avocados instead of bananas I'm not gonna be able to push out that extra 5 lbs to my goal is absurd. Just like the reverse is absurd.